any chance of a photo of the board without the daughterboard attached ?
also back of card & daughterboard 😀

weedeewee wrote on 2021-08-25, 16:48:

any chance of a photo of the board without the daughterboard attached ?
also back of card & daughterboard 😀

Sure! Here's the back:

And here's the card without the daughterboard:

Still can't really see anything noteworthy, though.

Well, given the number, I found this little tidbit of information on vcfed

https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/pcs- … ard-ibm-61x6720

seems to be an IBM XMA / EMS card. possibly 2MB of ram. maybe usable on a 286 using QRAM and/or some DOS v4 device driver.
enjoy.

weedeewee wrote on 2021-08-25, 18:42:

Well, given the number, I found this little tidbit of information on vcfed […]
Show full quote

Well, given the number, I found this little tidbit of information on vcfed

https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/pcs- … ard-ibm-61x6720

seems to be an IBM XMA / EMS card. possibly 2MB of ram. maybe usable on a 286 using QRAM and/or some DOS v4 device driver.
enjoy.

Interesting find! I'll see if I can get that running when I get a chance to whip out the old PC's again. I do not own a 286 or 386, though. I could try putting it in my 486 DX4 for testing purposes, but it won't have much use in there (already got 8megs of EDO).

I wonder how it ended up in a 8086, though. That driver is 286-only and I'm not sure if the IBM MODEL 30 8086 can even go beyond 640k of conventional ram.

It's not conventional RAM, it's more like expanded (EMS) from what I gather.

also, on a 486 you might want to try QEMM and/or the DOS v4 XMA2EMS.SYS. Though, I'm just guessing here.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/bb76.htm

edit :
https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/037/Q37242/

- XMA Memory […]
Show full quote

- XMA Memory

An IBM expanded memory adapter (XMA) is a separate board that contains IBM (or
compatible) XMA memory, which can be addressed as either expanded memory or
extended memory, with the appropriate software drivers.

weedeewee wrote on 2021-08-25, 19:20:

It's not conventional RAM, it's more like expanded (EMS) from what I gather. […]
Show full quote

It's not conventional RAM, it's more like expanded (EMS) from what I gather.

also, on a 486 you might want to try QEMM and/or the DOS v4 XMA2EMS.SYS. Though, I'm just guessing here.

http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/bb76.htm

edit :
https://jeffpar.github.io/kbarchive/kb/037/Q37242/

- XMA Memory

An IBM expanded memory adapter (XMA) is a separate board that contains IBM (or
compatible) XMA memory, which can be addressed as either expanded memory or
extended memory, with the appropriate software drivers.

Yes ! It is expanded ram and uses XMA2EMS.SYS. I have the same card from an old dead IBM AT. The main card has 1MB RAM and LPT, the daughter card has additional 1MB.
It can only be used for Expanded ram, not Extended and works on any older 8086, 286, 386 with a 16 bit ISA slot.

Horun wrote on 2021-08-25, 21:47:

Yes ! It is expanded ram and uses XMA2EMS.SYS. I have the same card from an old dead IBM AT. The main card has 1MB RAM and LPT, the daughter card has additional 1MB.
It can only be used for Expanded ram, not Extended and works on any older 8086, 286, 386 with a 16 bit ISA slot.

Thanks.
Are you sure about the 1M on the main card ? because looking at it. there's a lot of logic chips, and about 6KB of SRAM, but I don't see a heap of ram chips.
The daughterboard though only seems to contain ram chips.

I wonder if in an actual IBM system it would simply work without driver to enlarge the amount of ram available to the system...

weedeewee wrote on 2021-08-25, 22:05:

Thanks. Are you sure about the 1M on the main card ? because looking at it. there's a lot of logic chips, and about 6KB of SRAM […]
Show full quote

Horun wrote on 2021-08-25, 21:47:

Yes ! It is expanded ram and uses XMA2EMS.SYS. I have the same card from an old dead IBM AT. The main card has 1MB RAM and LPT, the daughter card has additional 1MB.
It can only be used for Expanded ram, not Extended and works on any older 8086, 286, 386 with a 16 bit ISA slot.

Thanks.
Are you sure about the 1M on the main card ? because looking at it. there's a lot of logic chips, and about 6KB of SRAM, but I don't see a heap of ram chips.
The daughterboard though only seems to contain ram chips.

I wonder if in an actual IBM system it would simply work without driver to enlarge the amount of ram available to the system...

Yeah sorry I was mentally confusing the Acer with daughter with the IBM with daughter one. Yes only has a few mem chips on mainboard.
No think it would still need a DOS driver to load the LMS Expanded ram for use in DOS though that could have been put in a secondary ROM in the AT. Like some XT's having up to to 6 total ROM sockets....just a guess.
I did try mine in a 286 and 386sx and it worked but there are so few programs outside of office apps stuff that can really use Expanded ram.
Tag tag on my daughter has 61x6667, 983692. 8839 SU.

Horun wrote on 2021-08-25, 22:38:

Yeah sorry I was mentally confusing the Acer with daughter with the IBM with daughter one. Yes only has a few mem chips on mainb […]
Show full quote

Yeah sorry I was mentally confusing the Acer with daughter with the IBM with daughter one. Yes only has a few mem chips on mainboard.
No think it would still need a DOS driver to load the LMS Expanded ram for use in DOS though that could have been put in a secondary ROM in the AT. Like some XT's having up to to 6 total ROM sockets....just a guess.
I did try mine in a 286 and 386sx and it worked but there are so few programs outside of office apps stuff that can really use Expanded ram.
Tag tag on my daughter has 61x6667, 983692. 8839 SU.

Well... according to one of the links I encountered looking this one up, apparently, some Dos BUFFERS can be used in EMS and a FASTOPEN ? command
https://www.betaarchive.com/wiki/index.php/Mi … B_Archive/39349
and some dos games... Wing Commander I've read somewhere 😀

I guess this is not a LIM EMS card but rather an IBM XMA card. If it's the latter than you should be able to use this for both extended and expanded memory according to this old Microsoft article: https://web.archive.org/web/20121022062051/ht … ft.com/kb/37242

I've been finding more references now that I know what to look for, like this Ebay listing showing the same card:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/141446344010

If I could find the correct driver for this card somewhere it would probably also work on an 808x. If this is something that IBM came up with for their PS/2 line, chances are that it's preconfigured in the ROM. I'll take a look at my diagnostics and setup disks.. maybe it can just simply be enabled there?

Hezus wrote on 2021-08-26, 05:49:

If I could find the correct driver for this card somewhere it would probably also work on an 808x. If this is something that IBM came up with for their PS/2 line, chances are that it's preconfigured in the ROM. I'll take a look at my diagnostics and setup disks.. maybe it can just simply be enabled there?

I gave it a shot and what do you know: There is it! 2 megs of XMA! The Checkout utility tested it and it all worked just fine 😀 Amazing to see it showing signs of life after not being able to get it to work for so many years.

Now I got to see how to use the XMA in certain applications. I wonder if the applications will auto-detect it themselves or if I need another piece of software to configure it.

More succes! 😀

I've grabbed XMA2EMS.SYS from the MSDOS 4.0 installation and apparently that also runs on a 8086 (or v30 at least). I searched some more until I found full documentation on how to set it up. Refer to page 90 of this document: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/pc … rence_Jul88.pdf

Once I found a free 64k spot to map it on, it showed up in Snooper:

I've also managed to set it up as a RAM drive using SRDISK (https://sourceforge.net/projects/srdisk). For some reason RAMDRIVE.SYS didn't want to work, but SRDISK works perfectly.

Let's see how much software there is for a 8086 that uses EMS memory. I'm also still on the lookout for any programs that use XMA nativly. I've been searching Google but nothing comes up.

Great ! Found some notes on my old HD about the IBM XMA adapter but nothing special that you have not already discovered.
I think some of the early DOS Apps like Lotus 1-2-3 and Claris Works might have been able to use XMA but have not found anything other than references to EMS...

This is very cool! Where did you locate the page frame, and do you know if the card supports 16-bit access to it? (I would hope so since it has a 16-bit card edge and doesn't support extended memory at all)

maxtherabbit wrote on 2021-08-26, 18:29:

This is very cool! Where did you locate the page frame, and do you know if the card supports 16-bit access to it? (I would hope so since it has a 16-bit card edge and doesn't support extended memory at all)

I mapped 64k to 'd000' and 2 pages for DOS (p254=e400, p255=e800). If you don't add a frame reference in the config.sys line, XMA2EMS.sys will scan all addresses for you and give you suggestions on where to map them. Very useful!

I'm not sure what the function of the 16 bit portion of the connector is. I'm using it in a 8 bit slot and it seems to work fine. At least as an EMS card. Since it's an XT I can't use it for extended memory. I would have to put it into my 486 to test later.

The Microsoft documents I quoted earlier states that XMA can be both used as EMS and XMS by using the correct software. I've yet to find a driver that turns XMA into XMS.

Also curious is that the XMA2EMS and the IBM config util can find all 2048k, but Snooper only reports 1664k of EMS. Either Snooper is wrong or some memory is lost in the conversion? Not sure what's going on. More mysteries to unfold!

Some of it's ram is mapped across Upper (UMA), so if you have only 640k then 384k will be mapped to UMA where part of that is the EMS window at D000 and the DOS pages of e400, e800.
It has been a long time (mid 2000's) since I played with mine and have forgotten more than I remember 🙁 Should put it in the 386sx again and see if it still works....
I think you need at least a 286 in order to make it work directly as extended and possibly XMAEM.SYS but read that is only for 386....

Hezus wrote on 2021-08-26, 20:42:

I mapped 64k to 'd000' and 2 pages for DOS (p254=e400, p255=e800). If you don't add a frame reference in the config.sys line, XM […]
Show full quote

maxtherabbit wrote on 2021-08-26, 18:29:

This is very cool! Where did you locate the page frame, and do you know if the card supports 16-bit access to it? (I would hope so since it has a 16-bit card edge and doesn't support extended memory at all)

I mapped 64k to 'd000' and 2 pages for DOS (p254=e400, p255=e800). If you don't add a frame reference in the config.sys line, XMA2EMS.sys will scan all addresses for you and give you suggestions on where to map them. Very useful!

I'm not sure what the function of the 16 bit portion of the connector is. I'm using it in a 8 bit slot and it seems to work fine. At least as an EMS card. Since it's an XT I can't use it for extended memory. I would have to put it into my 486 to test later.

The Microsoft documents I quoted earlier states that XMA can be both used as EMS and XMS by using the correct software. I've yet to find a driver that turns XMA into XMS.

Also curious is that the XMA2EMS and the IBM config util can find all 2048k, but Snooper only reports 1664k of EMS. Either Snooper is wrong or some memory is lost in the conversion? Not sure what's going on. More mysteries to unfold!

Oh silly me I assumed since the 8086 has an external data bus of 16-bit that the model 30 would have had 16-bit slots, but apparently that's not the case

I think it is great yours works and any info you can supply will help any others who may stumble on one.
I found some other information related to this particular Expansion card as a possible part of the IBM 3270 Terminal and add-on adapters (not by number but by 2MB with Parallel port that works under XT, AT IBM systems) for IBM PC and AT for 3270 PC and 3270 AT terminal emulators.
After digging thru minuszerodegree, bit savers, and old IBM docs it makes sense since most all IBM PC/XT/AT already had a Printer port included and the 3270 allowed connections to 4 pc's thru a mainframe and ability to control and print from them.
Page 382 of the IBM 3270 Workstation Program manual v1.0 mentions using XMA2EMS and XMA2VDK from disk 3 of 3 of the Workstation Program disks.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/pc … rence_Apr87.pdf
"* The XMA Device Driver, which provides an interface to expanded memory for most PC applications that use the LotusllntellMicrosoft2 Expanded Memory Specification.
* The XMA VDISK Device Driver, which provides a PC DOS-like virtual disk for use with the IBM XMA card"
Probably why Ramdrive did not work but a later 3rd party RAM disk tool did. Maybe IBM DOS 4 Vdisk would work but also maybe not.
Makes sense the memory card works OK for you on a XT type board because the 3270 package was made for both XT, AT and early 386 so the memory card would have to work in both 8bit and 16bit slots.
If I find any other info on the card will post it to this thread.
Oh here is a picture of mine and decades ago wrote on it with a sharpie about XMA2EMS and 2MB ram.

Horun wrote on 2021-08-27, 01:04:

I think it is great yours works and any info you can supply will help any others who may stumble on one. I found some other inf […]
Show full quote

I think it is great yours works and any info you can supply will help any others who may stumble on one.
I found some other information related to this particular Expansion card as a possible part of the IBM 3270 Terminal and add-on adapters (not by number but by 2MB with Parallel port that works under XT, AT IBM systems) for IBM PC and AT for 3270 PC and 3270 AT terminal emulators.
After digging thru minuszerodegree, bit savers, and old IBM docs it makes sense since most all IBM PC/XT/AT already had a Printer port included and the 3270 allowed connections to 4 pc's thru a mainframe and ability to control and print from them.
Page 382 of the IBM 3270 Workstation Program manual v1.0 mentions using XMA2EMS and XMA2VDK from disk 3 of 3 of the Workstation Program disks.
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/pc … rence_Apr87.pdf
"* The XMA Device Driver, which provides an interface to expanded memory for most PC applications that use the LotusllntellMicrosoft2 Expanded Memory Specification.
* The XMA VDISK Device Driver, which provides a PC DOS-like virtual disk for use with the IBM XMA card"
Probably why Ramdrive did not work but a later 3rd party RAM disk tool did. Maybe IBM DOS 4 Vdisk would work but also maybe not.
Makes sense the memory card works OK for you on a XT type board because the 3270 package was made for both XT, AT and early 386 so the memory card would have to work in both 8bit and 16bit slots.
If I find any other info on the card will post it to this thread.
Oh here is a picture of mine and decades ago wrote on it with a sharpie about XMA2EMS and 2MB ram.

That's a very interesting find and I guess you are right that this is a part for the IBM workstation. I've looked at reference pics to see what the memory cards for the PS/2 line looked like and they are quite different from our board, as they use SIMMs. There's some great info here (the entire website is an IBM treasure trove!):
https://ardent-tool.com/misc/IBM_Memory_Expansion.html#1_8MB

As the PS/2 line moved on to MCA slots, a lot of the cards are MCA and it is mentioned on the website that they could be configured as EMS or XMS. I guess that's where the Microsoft document got that idea from. I doubt this was possible for the 16bit ISA version of the XMA card, though. I've not found any evidence about XMA2XMS drivers ever existing. I'm not even sure if any programs used XMA directly or if it was just IBM's intent for XMA to be 'flexible memory' that could be configured as EMS or XMS.