To my (albiet limited) knowledge on utas fruit, infinite tsukuyomi is more powerful by a lot. It has planetary range, traps people permanently (unless there is someone to release it) and overall is just way stronger. Utas fruit is much easier to avoid and only lasts for as long as the user can stay awake. Infinite tsukuyomi has no such limitations
They are on the same level as far as sheer scale is concerned I believe. But Uta's fruit isn't as versatile in what it can do with its victim's consciousness inside the mental plane.
.... ??? I can't remember how the infinite tsukiyomi is powered, more specifically maintained. Rinnesharingan user? Or those being drained of chakra by the tree.
Both required a method to enhance the range of the technique (the full moon and the den den mushi).
Madera managed to capture most of the world in a small time span. IIRC uta captured approx. 70% of the population via her song, though that number was quickly rising
Assuming they can affect the same amount of people... The genjutsu seems to automatically create a target 's specific desires in their dream world... haven't seen much personal control being used directly on a person via the jutsu. Whereas uta's df can manipulate a targets mind and their body, as well as allow the user to have a presence in both the waking world and dream world, albeit they all have to share the same dream world.
For me it all balances out. The one thing that would really confirm one thing over the other is how the gentusu is powered. Without the ten tails power I don't think the tsukiyomi as actually infinite.
Infinite Tsukiyomi needs the moon and large jutsu to be even attempted. Uta needs the Den Den Mushi to increase its scale but to use it there's no lofty requirements and she can just sing and use it. Uta wins more availability.
Infinite Tsukiyomi affects like the entire world. Uta affects like 70% of the world's population and the number continues to rise quickly and is said to take the entire world as well plus it is only limited to how far her voice can spread (One Piece world is also larger than normal). Uta wins having more scale and potential to grow to affect even more people.
Infinite Tsukiyomi makes a dream/Illusion. Uta makes literal dimension/world which is an exact copy of the real world of which she has essentially omnipotent sway over and can control the afflicted peoples bodies and souls. Uta wins influence and ability.
As for Round Two with the Ten Tails and Tot Musica. In a battle sense its easily Tot Musica due to its dual dimensional immunity defense, and the fact that it has all the powers of Uta and that it with it's presence fuse two realms together. Mind you if it does fuse the real world and Uta's World they might aswell become invincible since they'll have full control over the fused world.
Infinite Tsukiyomi makes a dream/Illusion. Uta makes literal dimension/world which is an exact copy of the real world of which she has essentially omnipotent sway over and can control the afflicted peoples bodies and souls. Uta wins influence and ability
No , the thing you described is textbook Tsukuyomi for Uta , Infinite Tsukuyomi is simply Tsukuyomi amped to oblivion in potency and range via six path chakra so the application of Tsukuyomi also applies to infinite Tsukuyomi , as Madara showed in the cave the mechanics of infinite Tsukuyomi are a 1:1 recreation of Tsukuyomi even when casted eye to eye by a near dead old Madara via a mere 3 Tomoe sharingan.
Regarding range , the Infinite Tsukuyomi and Uta's music are on par with each other with the Infinite Tsukuyomi having the edge as it quite literally instantly took over the planet , was completely unavoidable under any circumstance except the display of blatant resistance like sasuke and was completely permanent , Uta as admitted took over 70% of the world and the number was rising so the gap here certainly isn't large but in range Infinite Tsukuyomi takes the cake.
Regarding mechanics , Tsukuyomi rips someone's soul/mind away from the body , places it in mental/spiritual realm completely under the control of the caster from time to space to gravity to logic , here the caster can crush the soul/mind , make it comprehend infinity and have its mind break , erase personality/memories e.t.c , Infinite Tsukuyomi is just Tsukuyomi amplified to oblivion via six path powers , usage of much powerful dojutsu e.t.c. , from what I can tell the mechanics of both seems about the same.
Potency , Naruto verse give its random Jounins quiet literally tens of mental resistance layers which are completely meaningless to a much weaker Infinite Tsukuyomi casted by Madara in the cave scene with Obito , how do resistance layers for One piece?
@thenamelessone: Did you just say Tsukiyomi is just like Uta's Sing World... you do realize that Tsukiyomi is literally just a powerful illusion right... while Uta literally just makes a world with her power (it's not an illusion) as it literally teleports your soul/mind into her world which is an exact copy of the real world but she has essentially omnipotent control over it and is invincible in it (also while your in her Song World she gains full control of your comatose body able to use any if your abilities which is ridiculously strong).
Range: Infinite Tsukiyomi needed the moon, lots of chakra and special circumstances to be used. Uta's World needs Den Den Mushi and that's about it since as long as she has people hear her voice she can affect them (She also affected 70% of the world's population and rising which is especially impressive since the One Piece world is much bigger than earth). So I don't see why Uta wouldn't get scale/range for this since she affected more people on a greater scale.
Mechanics: Tsukiyomi is just a powerful illusion/genjutsu which lets you put them into a dream or nightmare in a second while affecting how they perceive time during as such (it is used to damage the targets spirit). Like I said before Uta makes a literal world called the Sing World which takes peoples souls/minds into the world and she gets essentially omnipotent control over the world.
Potency: Timeline sake Film Red must occur at some point post Wano since Sanji has blue flames and Luffy went G5. As such Uta's song affected literal yonko level caliber characters like Law and Luffy which mind you even Law with his level of haki can outright cancel Doc Q. disease powers which are no illusion/aren't fake and affected his real body (the disease was also designed to disorient and such).
Kaido and Big Mom were had such great Haki they could passively no sell Law's spatial and soul hax and Luffy was able to enter a haki clash with a stronger Shuron Hakke Hybrid Kaido. So Luffy should be relative to Kaido's haki which could no sell Law's spatial/soul hax yet both Luffy and Law were easily taken by Uta's song.
Then also Uta's song could affect Robin, Brook, Jimbei and Law of which Robin/Brook could no sell and ignore Black Maria's hullicatory/illusory mist which affected their minds. Then for Jimbei and Law as well they could no sell Big Mom's Conqueror’s Haki and Soul or Life which focuses on overwhelming and ripping a targets soul out through fear and such.
Also just for a general note Conqueror’s haki literally acts as a mental attack which is often no selled by like all of the relavent characters on a daily basis. Luffy can knock out 50,000 fishman with a single use, while Shanks/Rayleigh were said to be able to knock out all 100,000 fishman. Luffy also has shown to constantly tame and Intimidate incredibly strong creatures and beasts with ease all while Luffy can't even phase Doffy with his Conqueror’s haki (Luffy grows and strength plenty and so does his Conqueror’s yet his Conqueror's doesn't phase the likes of yonkos and such).
In Film Red Observation Haki gets the feat of essentially cross dimensional sight and vision linking as well so thats a thing along with the basic uses of Observation Haki which could all be used to get around illusions and such. There's probably more but that's all I could think of off the top of my head.
Lastly can we at least agree that for Round 2 it's a stomp in Tot Musica's favor.
@plaguedocter: Not going to read that much , what I'm going to read I'm going to reply to
Did you just say Tsukiyomi is just like Uta's Sing World... you do realize that Tsukiyomi is literally just a powerful illusion right... while Uta literally just makes a world with her power (it's not an illusion) as it literally teleports your soul/mind into her world which is an exact copy of the real world but she has essentially omnipotent control over it and is invincible in it (also while your in her Song World she gains full control of your comatose body able to use any if your abilities which is ridiculously strong)
those are the exact mechanics of the basic weak Tsukuyomi without any six path powers , a spiritual/mental realm where a target is teleported and that realm is under the omnipotent control of its creator , thats what the Tsukuyomi databook entrance and the novel shows us regarding Tsukuyomi , it isn't a mere illusion as it quiet literally effects people physically and spiritually like downright killed a 15 year old girl by making her an old woman , its dragging people in a mental/spiritual realm used interchangeably which is completely under the control of the caster
An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one’s heart and soul!! The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world’s common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster’s hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches…!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.
Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha Clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.
The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they’ve never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world’s principles themselves obey the caster’s beck and call.
Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
Only those of Uchiha blood… Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?
The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.
Lastly can we at least agree that for Round 2 it's a stomp in Tot Musica's favor
sure , no chance a mindless beast can take Tot Musica.
IT one shots an entire planet in an instant. Whether it’s a human or animal. Only Rinnegan & undead can survive. Even Naruto would have been one shotted were it not for Sasuke.
1) those are the exact mechanics of the basic weak Tsukuyomi without any six path powers, a spiritual/mental realm where a target is teleported and that realm is under the omnipotent control of its creator, thats what the Tsukuyomi databook entrance and the novel shows us regarding Tsukuyomi , it isn't a mere illusion as it quiet literally effects people physically and spiritually like downright killed a 15 year old girl by making her an old woman , its dragging people in a mental/spiritual realm used interchangeably which is completely under the control of the caster
As I have shown below no it's not an actual world it's hypnosis this realm it refers to many times is the mind not an actual world. And no it doesn't actual "damage" you physically it "damages" mentally as it tries to break your spirit and overwhelm your conscious (it literally says that Tsukuyomi can't physically damage the target only mental damage). Any physical effects as a result of Tsukuyomi are not directly done via Tsukuyomi they are done though the mental stress and torture inflicted on the mind which then affects the body indirectly think of how say a veteran gets raised heartrate and attacks when he hears fireworks... it's the mental stress which results in physical harm. Genjutsu cannot directly harm they are illusions.
Uhh it's not an ninjutsu so I don't know where you got your info from... in fact later it literally calls itself a genjutsu...
An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one’s heart and soul!! The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.
Great more meaningless hype did you get this from a databook...
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished.But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
Great job ignoring what it's saying to you to try to push a narrative which doesn't exist. I'll underline what you should be reading: It calls it's self hypnosis and the "mental world" it brings up is literally just your mind it's not literal, it's talking about how it's not real therefore it's not bound by such limitations since it's a more power genjutsu.
Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world’s common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster’s hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches…!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.
Then again I'll underline what you should be reading... their in a genjutsu, an illusion, a dream, this supposed world you keep trying to say is like an ACTUAL world in no ACTUAL world it's their psyche or conscious or mind not an actual world.
The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they’ve never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world’s principles themselves obey the caster’s beck and call.
Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
Once again it can't actually damage you only inflict mental damage in the "spiritual realm" which once again is just an illusion like a dream and it's not damaging your soul or anything like that. It's only giving you mental "damage" via torture and such.
The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command.Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.
Once again I'm underlining what your missing... and look again it says mental realm... you know like your mind or psyche. And it even talks about the "images shown" and such can be tailored to your opponent showing once again it's just an illusion otherwise known as GENJUTSU...
In fact Danzo himself calls Tsukuyomi an illusion not an actual world in fact the only difference between Sasuke's ILLUSION and Itachi's was that Itachi could alter your sense of time.
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Anyways that'll be it for now hope you understand it now.
2) sure , no chance a mindless beast can take Tot Musica.
As I have shown below no it's not an actual world it's hypnosis this realm it refers to many times is the mind not an actual world. And no it doesn't actual "damage" you physically it "damages" mentally as it tries to break your spirit and overwhelm your conscious (it literally says that Tsukuyomi can't physically damage the target only mental damage). Any physical effects as a result of Tsukuyomi are not directly done via Tsukuyomi they are done though the mental stress and torture inflicted on the mind which then affects the body indirectly think of how say a veteran gets raised heartrate and attacks when he hears fireworks... it's the mental stress which results in physical harm. Genjutsu cannot directly harm they are illusions
we literally see the dimension being called a spiritual or mental realm , and no this is wrong , Izumi wasn't subjected to any mental torture, she was subjected to merely a peaceful and great life of 80 years in one second inside of the dimension of Tsukuyomi, she quite literally aged in the spiritual realm and passed away peacefully in the spiritual and the physical realm , and thus a direct of showing of how the happenings in the realm of Tsukuyomi effect the real life happenings.
Uhh it's not an ninjutsu so I don't know where you got your info from... in fact later it literally calls itself a genjutsu
this is the databook entry of Tsukuyomi , the databook messes multiple times between Genjutsu and ninjutsu because of no direct distinction of Dojutsu , so they also accidentally list Izinagi as a Genjutsu when its clearly a Dojutsu, but these are just semantics that won't effect the conversation in any way.
Great more meaningless hype did you get this from a databook...
thats just how a databook is written , title ----> image ----> a short but descriptive statement -----> the actual body of text , we're at the third stage.
Great job ignoring what it's saying to you to try to push a narrative which doesn't exist. I'll underline what you should be reading: It calls it's self hypnosis and the "mental world" it brings up is literally just your mind it's not literal, it's talking about how it's not real therefore it's not bound by such limitations since it's a more power genjutsu.
Don't play smartass with me boy , that is not something you want to do with me of all people , and regardless " mental world " is the same thing as spiritual/soul world , in Naruto spiritual and mental are used as synonyms , as the countless examples of chakra description using physical and spiritual/mental terms , the mental world here is merely a spiritual world and no it's not the mind of the target as explained "But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!" the caster drags the victim to the mental realm of Tsukuyomi, the wording here by your interpretation would be "transforming their mind to the strange mental world of Tsukuyomi" , but thats not it, the victim is actively being dragged aka Tsukuyomi works as a mental/spiritual BFR to the realm of Tsukuyomi , and ofcourse its not "real" , real would require it taking place in physical space with the physical body and this is taking place in a spiritual realm with soul/mind and thus the description.
Then again I'll underline what you should be reading... their in a genjutsu, an illusion, a dream, this supposed world you keep trying to say is like an ACTUAL world in no ACTUAL world it's their psyche or conscious or mind not an actual world
this is a blatant strawmann , my first text that started the debate was "Regarding mechanics , Tsukuyomi rips someone's soul/mind away from the body , places it in mental/spiritual realm completely under the control of the caster from time to space to gravity to logic , here the caster can crush the soul/mind , make it comprehend infinity and have its mind break , erase personality/memories e.t.c , Infinite Tsukuyomi is just Tsukuyomi amplified to oblivion via six path powers , usage of much powerful dojutsu e.t.c. , from what I can tell the mechanics of both seems about the same." I've been exceptionally consistent on it not taking place on the physical space and that the soul/mind is being removed from the body and transported to a non physical , spiritual/mental realm which is under the complete omnipotent control of Itachi , that is not a complex concept , you're just strawmanning the argument , Tsukuyomi can be described in as basic terminology as a technique that takes the opponent's soul , BFRs that soul to the Tsukuyomi realm which is a spiritual realm , a realm under the complete and absolute control of itachi where he controls all its laws and can do anything to the soul, that is a great and complex technique but not too complex to be understood.
Once again it can't actually damage you only inflict mental damage in the "spiritual realm" which once again is just an illusion like a dream and it's not damaging your soul or anything like that. It's only giving you mental "damage" via torture and such.
The Spiritual realm is not a dream of an illusion , it actually happens and damages the spirit/mind as proven by the very text you quoted "Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage" no amounts of illusions are actually gonna make people braindead like Itachi has done to shinobis in his novels and no amount of illusions are actually erasing people's memories and personalities as Itachi has done in the past.By feats and databook entry its extremely clear what Tsukuyomi is , a jutsu that rips off soul to the Tsukuyomi spiritual realm which is under the omnipotent control of the caster and Itachi can do anything to the soul/mind in the Tsukuyomi spiritual/mental realm.
and the effect of the mental/spiritual realms do take over to the physical world , such as when Izumi quiet literally died , and her voice , a phenomenon created by the human Larynx , quite literally changed her voice into an old lady , the voice of a girl turning deeper as age goes is actually a scientific phenomenon that happens because of our Larynx aging "As adults age, the vocal cords become thinner, and the cartilage of the larynx becomes harder and less flexible, altering the voice. Aging often changes the pitch of the voice, causing it to become higher in older men and lower in older women" something like this would only happen if the Larynx itself as well as the vocal cords are deeply effected and aged , meaning Izumi's aging in the spiritual realm to 80 years old actually effected her Larynx and certain physical body parts to age to similar age and thus certain effects from the spiritual realm going to the physical one , as the larynx and vocal cord aging , can happen if Itachi wishes for it to and which makes sense as our soul is an jmportant part of our being.
Once again I'm underlining what your missing... and look again it says mental realm... you know like your mind or psyche. And it even talks about the "images shown" and such can be tailored to your opponent showing once again it's just an illusion otherwise known as GENJUTSU...
Genjutsus aren't limited to illusions though? there are many mind control , memory manipulation e.t.c. Genjutsu so saying Genjutsu = illusion by defailt is a pretty shitty argument , Tsukuyomi is spiritual and mental BFR and then completely spiritual and mental manipulation, its a simple definition you're attempting to overcomplicate.
In fact Danzo himself calls Tsukuyomi an illusion not an actual world in fact the only difference between Sasuke's ILLUSION and Itachi's was that Itachi could alter your sense of time.
Sasuke's Genjutsu is vertabim not even compareable to that of itachi's Tsukuyomi, and Danzou was never put into Tsukuyomi , and again its very clearly a spiritual/mental realm as proven in this conversation already , its not a Physical space but its a mental/spiritual space completely under itachi's control , thats just what Tsukuyomi is.
Anyways that'll be it for now hope you understand it now
I've understood it for a while , you don't seem to understand Tsukuyomi however.
1) this is the databook entry of Tsukuyomi, the databook messes multiple times between Genjutsu and ninjutsu because of no direct distinction of Dojutsu , so they also accidentally list Izinagi as a Genjutsu when its clearly a Dojutsu, but these are just semantics that won't effect the conversation in any way.
So your gonna just brush the fact that the databook you are using for your points isn't even self consistent with itself, it can't even name the thing it's made for correctly... heck the databook uses like 4 different terms to reference Tsukuyomi's abilities and you want to use it instead of the direct manga panels I provided!? And your using the most flamboyant flowerily language from the databook which changes like I said like 4 times and you want to use that instead of everything else I've shown.
2)Genjutsus aren't limited to illusions though? there are many mind control, memory manipulation e.t.c. Genjutsu so saying Genjutsu = illusion by default is a pretty trash argument, Tsukuyomi is spiritual and mental BFR and then completely spiritual and mental manipulation, its a simple definition you're attempting to overcomplicate.
They never BFR their soul ever nor do they BFR their mind their mind/soul are still in their body they just mess up what they sense. Also Genjutsu for the most part is illusions it's just that it's control over the mind is akin to hypnosis as I've been saying (hypnosis of which if you don't know allows for all the things like brainwashing, mind control, etc) in fact the databook you reference literally calls Tsukuyomi hypnosis directly:
"Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi."
So why do you take the other words from the databook to be more viable even though your told exactly what Tsukuyomi is right in the beginning? Seems like some bias is going through. In fact Genjutsu is repeatedly mentioned as an illusion and not real in fact the Izanagi is the only Genjutsu that affects reality and in fact is an extreme outlier. In fact you saying that Tsukuyomi is BFR'ing their soul means it's affecting the physical world since souls are in the real world (pain tries to rip out naruto's and we see it among other instances).
Also look again like literally everyone calls Tsukuyomi an illusion and genjutsu just like I've been saying:
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3) Sasuke's Genjutsu is verbatim not even comparable to that of itachi's Tsukuyomi, and Danzou was never put into Tsukuyomi, and again its very clearly a spiritual/mental realm as proven in this conversation already, its not a Physical space but its a mental/spiritual space completely under itachi's control, thats just what Tsukuyomi is.
Sasuke might aswell have Tsukuyomi quite literally the only difference is that Sasuke can't affect one's perception of time which Danzo notes.
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3) I've understood it for a while, you don't seem to understand Tsukuyomi however.
Doubtful... your literally advocating this:
"showing of how the happenings in the realm of Tsukuyomi effect the real life happenings"
Which if you don't forget Itachi literally has a little snippet in how he's going to make Sasuke losing his from a dream into reality which contradicts what your saying.
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Also you do know that Genjutsu literally translates to: Art of Illusion, Illusionary Techniques, etc. The only genjutsu to affect reality is Izanagi. Now if you want to point to the most outlier of outliers and go look at a single random novel which completely ignores everything we've known about genjutsu till now just to say that Tsukuyomi is not an illusion since it physically affected this one women to speak like an old women (which mind you is perfectly possible withing the realm of hypnosis)... then I honestly don't know what to tell you. All Tsukuyomi does is make a powerful illusion which affects ones perception of time and which is used to do mental damage via mental stress and such.
Anyways that'll be all I guess for now. Oh and don't call me boy or smart--- I'm not swearing at you, so you don't need to be calling me those all it does is make things hostile and escalate things.
So your gonna just brush the fact that the databook you are using for your points isn't even self consistent with itself can't even name the thing it's mae for correctly...
Again , many techniques are listed as Genjutsu or ninjutsu when they shouldn't come under either due to the lack of the term dojitsu in the technique listing, but again if your entire argument revolves around picking apart an irrelevant semantic then you may as well not have an argument on the table.
heck the databook uses like 4 different terms to reference Tsukuyomi's abilities and you want to use it instead of the direct manga panels I provided!? And your using the most flamboyant flowerily language from the databook which changes like I said like 4 times and you want to use that instead of everything else I've shown.
Really? let us do a short breakdown on the databook entry.
An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one’s heart and soul!! The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.
explaination ------> as I explained earlier , a databook is written in this exact manner , thats just how a databook is written , title ----> image ----> a short but descriptive statement -----> the actual body of text , we're at the third stage here , and even here it says by Tsukuyomi there is grip held on all of creation , contextually the creation refers to the Tsukuyomi realm and how Itachi has control over all its priciple , and thus can use the Tsukuyomi realm and such to completely annihilate one's soul , now lets see if the other part contradicts It.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
explaination ------> probably the most important piece of text here , this is practically explaining how everyone is bound by the laws of time , gravity , space e.t.c. in the normal physical space but that the Tsukuyomi drags someone to the mental realm that does not have the principals and limitations and thus the mental realm aka the realm of Tsukuyomi is entirely under itachi's control.
Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world’s common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster’s hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches…!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.
explanation ------> this goes on to show us that the caster is controlling all the things about the verse and explciitly differentitates between the mental Tsukuyomi realm and the physical world and explains how the logic and common sense of the physical world is utterly useless in the Tsukuyomi realm , which is clear cut by earlier statements that explains how our physical limitations , laws and common sense such as the gravitational force , the flow of time and the existence of space , the laws and limitations that is the thing that comes under logic , is completely meaningless in the Tsukuyomi realm as its under Itachi's control , Tsukuyomi realm is reffered to as a strange world of infinity and then explained how they can collapse psyche and such via torture , a common usage of Tsukuyomi which extends furthur in other feats.
Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha Clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.
explanation ----> a mere hint at only sharingan users being able to defeat Tsukuyomi inverse and that this is a god given jutsu due to how sheerly powerful it is
The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they’ve never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world’s principles themselves obey the caster’s beck and call.
explaination ------> this is more confirmation that the Tsukuyomi is indeed a spiritual realm and that eye contact is needed for the activation of Tsukuyomi , another text not contradicting any other paragraph before it.
Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
explanation ------> another example the realm being mention but straight up being called spiritual by now , a spiritual realm is a realm that works on a soul level , mind and soul in Naruto are same ,previous mention of Tsukuyomi anhilating souls comes into play here and explains how mental and spiritual realms are the same thingm
The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.
explanation -------> another mention of the mental realm , not just some illusion , and the images shown , aka the term you took out of context earlier is succeeded directly by the term " actions taken " , this means whats being seen and done in the Tsukuyomi realm is under the caster's command , not the images the opponent is dirrectly seeing, the opponent is directly vieweing the Tsukuyomi realm when under Tsukuyomi and thus will see what the realm shows.
so no , nowhere does the databook entry contradicts itself with the exception of Genjutsu/Ninjutsu listing , but as explained , that is mere semantics.
They never BFR their soul ever nor do they BFR their mind their mind/soul are still in their body they just mess up what they sense.
yes they do , as the caster drags their mind/soul into a mental/spiritual realm as directly stated in the text being debated "But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!" , as directly stated they are dragged into a mental/spiritual realm , your headcanon can just be dismissed.
Also Genjutsu for the most part is illusions it's just that it's control over the mind is akin to hypnosis as I've been saying (hypnosis of which if you don't know allows for all the things like brainwashing, mind control, etc) in fact the databook you reference literally calls Tsukuyomi hypnosis directly:
"Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi."
oh now we're jumping from illusion to hypnosis , are we? why don't you read the text right next to the hypnosis part "Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!" oh wait? the very same paragraph that mentions the hypnosis part , a vague term that just be chalked up to the manipulation of one's mind , aka exactly what Tsukuyomi is , tearing away one's mind to a strange realm of infinity under itachi's control and simply torturing , destroying or effecting it in other ways , regardless that can be defined as a manipulation of one's mind/soul.
So why do you take the other words from the databook to be more viable even though your told exactly what Tsukuyomi is right in the beginning? Seems like some bias is going through.
Oh? this is exactly why the reputation you have between naruto community , the reality of the situation far differs from your biased glasses my friend , hypnosis is a manipulation of one's mind , that is how the term has always been used in fiction , what Tsukuyomi does is BFR someone's mind , and by default soul into a mental/spiritual dimension completely under itachi's command , it is not a hard concept to deduce it could reasonably be placed under " hypnosis " via how the world is used as in fiction.
In fact Genjutsu is repeatedly mentioned as an illusion and not real in fact
" mental world " is the same thing as spiritual/soul world , in Naruto spiritual and mental are used as synonyms , as the countless examples of chakra description using physical and spiritual/mental terms , the mental world here is merely a spiritual world and no it's not the mind of the target as explained "But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!"the caster drags the victim to the mental realm of Tsukuyomi, the wording here by your interpretation would be"transforming their mind to the strange mental world of Tsukuyomi", but thats not it, the victim is actively being dragged aka Tsukuyomi works as a mental/spiritual BFR to the realm of Tsukuyomi , and ofcourse its not"real", real would require it taking place in physical space with the physical body and this is taking place in a spiritual realm with soul/mind and thus the description
the Izanagi is the only Genjutsu that affects reality and in fact is an extreme outlier.
the Izinagi being listed as a Genjutsu already is bullshit , Izinagi is reality manipulation which invalidates any inconvineant reality and rewrites reality in the favour of the caster and thus Izinagi is quite literally reality invalidation and reality manipulation , another testament to the listings of jutsus being irrelvant after part 1.
In fact you saying that Tsukuyomi is BFR'ing their soul means it's affecting the physical world since souls are in the real world (pain tries to rip out naruto's and we see it among other instances).
clever , but not correct or potent as an argument against anyone who knows what he is doing , pain ripping souls off is an example of the souls being ripped out in the physical real world , we've seen the souls in their normal imhabitat , for example in the scene where Minato comes , kurama refers to the Naruto whose eyes had turned red walking toward the gates that bind kurama as "soul" and thus showing us the place where Naruto and kurama meet each other is the normal spiritual habitat they are in , Hagoromo also enters it in a later scene and calls it "inner consciouness" and thus normally spirits in Naruto are in the "inner consciouness" where others spirits such as Kurama also stay.
ripped that soul off the "inner consciouness" , take it to Tsukuyomi realm and the thats basically Tsukuyomi , for example if itachi casts Tsukuyomi on Naruto , kurama would be left alone in the inner consciouness but itachi never casted it on Naruto sadly , and thats an example of how that works.
so no , just soul manipulation doesn't make it effecting the physical reality as the souls in Naruto orignally already inhabit a mental realm called inner consciouness/mind.
Also look again like literally everyone calls Tsukuyomi an illusion and genjutsu just like I've been saying:
contradicted by feats and thats just a name , it doesn't function like your normal fictional illusions , normal illusions don't erase personalities/memories or age people and kill them. ofcourse the only legitmate statement is the illusion one from itachi which is merely saying that itachi didn't literally take sasuke's eyes in real life and thus wasn't "real" , things that aren't real can be classified as illusions , for being real something needs to take place in the physical realm , but Tsukuyomi takes place in a mental/spiritual realm , so neither hypnosis nor illusion are contradicting the explained functioning of the techniqhe.
Sasuke might aswell have Tsukuyomi quite literally the only difference is that Sasuke can't affect one's perception of time which Danzo notes
quite a Tsukuyomi that functions nothing like Tsukuyomi , there is no textbook red and black tint , there are no clones , danzou is capable of taking decisions by himself rather then being powerless like Kakashi was against the first Tsukuyomi e.t.c. , please , even you know Sasuke actually having or ever using Tsukuyomi is a massive reach. Danzou is merely saying that itachi's Tsukuyomi can even control the perception of time , a facet of Tsukuyomi something it achieves via controlling the time of the Tsukuyomi, but manipulating that alone in danzou's eyes put Tsukuyomi in a whole different level compared to sasuke's Genjutsu , you're are at this point just making unmentioned connections.
Doubtful... your literally advocating this:
"showing of how the happenings in the realm of Tsukuyomi effect the real life happenings"
I remember proving that it does by actual feats , the effect of the mental/spiritual realms do take over to the physical world , such as when Izumi quiet literally died , and her voice , a phenomenon created by the human Larynx , quite literally changed her voice into an old lady , the voice of a girl turning deeper as age goes is actually a scientific phenomenon that happens because of our Larynx aging"As adults age, the vocal cords become thinner, and the cartilage of the larynx becomes harder and less flexible, altering the voice. Aging often changes the pitch of the voice, causing it to become higher in older men and lower in older women"something like this would only happen if the Larynx itself as well as the vocal cords are deeply effected and aged , meaning Izumi's aging in the spiritual realm to 80 years old actually effected her Larynx and certain physical body parts to age to similar age and thus certain effects from the spiritual realm going to the physical one , as the larynx and vocal cord aging , can happen if Itachi wishes for it to and which makes sense as our soul is an jmportant part of our being.
I'm not claiming that the entire technique goes 1:1 to reality but certain effects does as Izumi's internal body parts aging to 80+ actually did happen and take over to the real life.
Which if you don't forget Itachi literally has a little snippet in how he's going to make Sasuke losing his from a dream into reality which contradicts what your saying.
a fight that Itachi intended to lose and that Sasuke just broke his illusion via resistance and usage of sharingan? yikes.
Also you do know that Genjutsu literally translates to: Art of Illusion, Illusionary Techniques, etc.
do you know that this is just name fallacy? Genjutsu has feats of memory manip , mind control , working on literal dead bodies , obedience spell e.t.c. e.t.c e.t.c , there is far more to Genjutsu then just basic illusion creation.
The only genjutsu to affect reality is Izanagi. Now if you want to point to the most outlier of outliers and go look at a single random novel which completely ignores everything we've known about genjutsu till now just to say that
Tsukuyomi is not an illusion since it physically affected this one women to speak like an old women (which mind you is perfectly possible withing the realm of hypnosis)...
an illusion in literal terms is a mere mirage , something you see but doesn't exactly exist or is present , this could happen due to countless reasons such as stress or mental illness , when seeing an illusion you are still capable of thinking , like Danzou was capable of thinking and realizing that he is under an illusion , now that is an illusion but there is far more to Genjutsu then mere illusion.
mind control -----> achieved by countless genjutsu users.
memory manipulation -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi and basic sharingan.
information Manipulation -----> achieved by any sharingan.
sleep inducement -----> achieved by countless genjutsu and any sharingan.
Dream manipulation -----> achieved by any sharingan.
memory erasure ----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
personality erasure -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
Soul destruction and death manipulation -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
all of the things above are not being achieved by an illusion.
then I honestly don't know what to tell you. All Tsukuyomi does is make a powerful illusion which affects ones perception of time and which is used to do mental damage via mental stress and such.
Tsukuyomi is a jutsu that rips off the soul/mind of someone , takes them to another spiritual dimension which is completely under the command of the caster of the Genjutsu , thats all Tsukuyomi is , if you believe its anything else then you're objectively incorrect and do not understand the verse or the technique.
Anyways that'll be all I guess for now. Oh and don't call me boy or smart--- I'm not swearing at you, so you don't need to be calling me those all it does is make things hostile and escalate things
I'm merely acting like you are , if you're gonna accuse me of ignorance and then expect friendly behaviour then you are seriously reaching, but ok I'm not gonna call you boy or smartass
Depends on how big the One Piece planet is. If you take into account the idea of there possibly being 20 million islands including the possibility of more continent sized countries like Alabasta along side those 20 mil islands with the OP planet being mostly composed of water even more so then our planet, then Uta's range is looking really insane. Like way above planetary. She also can transmute and manipulate the souls of inanimate objects like the Sunny. Have the people under the spell of her dimension essentially walking zombies to do whatever she wants with them, etc.
Infinite Tsukoyomi caster benefits from not having to waste as much energy over a period of time. You just cast the Jutsu and it's over with.
1) Infinite Tsukoyomi caster benefits from not having to waste as much energy over a period of time. You just cast the Jutsu and it's over with.
Isn't that because they use the tree to take their chakra in fact the only reason why the jutsu could be used was because they stole an exorbitant amount of Chakra. Meanwhile Uta does her feat self maintained using her own power to maintain an entire parallel dimension/world.
@thenamelessone: Like what do I have to do to change your mind!? You take novel and databook statements over what the main canon manga tells you many times over even though both the databook and novel go against everything we've been shown till now and can't even keep self consistency.
The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi.
Then the novel you try to reference has Tsukuyomi supposedly affect reality even though that literally breaks all of canon... since Izanagi should be the ONLY thing sharingan/genjutsu wise which effects actual reality. Also by the looks of things Tsukuyomi isn't even the strongest like the databook surmises as Izanagi by the looks of things is leagues better (though it does have a cost though).
Gallery
Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu, it is an illusion Sasuke and Itachi both say it's a "dream" or illusion... meanwhile Izanagi also a Genjutsu is called essentially the strongest ever as it can actually affect reality. Where is the confusion!? Tsukuyomi doesn't affect reality it isn't Izanagi and it is explicitly outlined to NOT affect reality all it does is affect the mind... like all genjutsu but to a greater degree since it can affect the illusions length.
Also in the very Databook you use it says:
Namely, this means inside the genjutsu
As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...
Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.
The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi.
Inside the genjutsu = Mental realm = psyches = coconscious = mind = etc... Then there's the panels of which show that once again:
Gallery
Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu which you trap your opponent in that's how it's always been I can keep showing panels if you want...
Anyways just stop trying to say Tsukuyomi is an actual different dimension which is manifested it isn't, it's an genjutsu sure you can say it's a 'realm" in the mind... but that's just a dream as Itachi and Sasuke say not an actual world.
make a half decent argument perhaps that doesn't fall apart once someone starts looking into it without being biased to the core? all your argument stem from making contradictions where there are none ,my condolences that Uta cannot match basic Tsukuyomi's mechanics at all but that is not gonna make me change my understanding of the technique.
You take novel and databook statements over what the main canon manga tells you many times over even though both the databook and novel go against everything we've been shown till now and can't even keep self consistency.
oh wait the databook isn't self consistent? not like someone did a complete breakdown debunking the idea that the databook is contradicting itself , really? let us do a short breakdown on the databook entry.
An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one’s heart and soul!! The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.
explaination ------> as I explained earlier , a databook is written in this exact manner , thats just how a databook is written , title ----> image ----> a short but descriptive statement -----> the actual body of text , we're at the third stage here , and even here it says by Tsukuyomi there is grip held on all of creation , contextually the creation refers to the Tsukuyomi realm and how Itachi has control over all its priciple , and thus can use the Tsukuyomi realm and such to completely annihilate one's soul , now lets see if the other part contradicts It.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
explaination ------> probably the most important piece of text here , this is practically explaining how everyone is bound by the laws of time , gravity , space e.t.c. in the normal physical space but that the Tsukuyomi drags someone to the mental realm that does not have the principals and limitations and thus the mental realm aka the realm of Tsukuyomi is entirely under itachi's control.
Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world’s common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster’s hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches…!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.
explanation ------> this goes on to show us that the caster is controlling all the things about the verse and explciitly differentitates between the mental Tsukuyomi realm and the physical world and explains how the logic and common sense of the physical world is utterly useless in the Tsukuyomi realm , which is clear cut by earlier statements that explains how our physical limitations , laws and common sense such as the gravitational force , the flow of time and the existence of space , the laws and limitations that is the thing that comes under logic , is completely meaningless in the Tsukuyomi realm as its under Itachi's control , Tsukuyomi realm is reffered to as a strange world of infinity and then explained how they can collapse psyche and such via torture , a common usage of Tsukuyomi which extends furthur in other feats.
Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha Clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.
explanation ----> a mere hint at only sharingan users being able to defeat Tsukuyomi inverse and that this is a god given jutsu due to how sheerly powerful it is
The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they’ve never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world’s principles themselves obey the caster’s beck and call.
explaination ------> this is more confirmation that the Tsukuyomi is indeed a spiritual realm and that eye contact is needed for the activation of Tsukuyomi , another text not contradicting any other paragraph before it.
Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
explanation ------> another example the realm being mention but straight up being called spiritual by now , a spiritual realm is a realm that works on a soul level , mind and soul in Naruto are same ,previous mention of Tsukuyomi anhilating souls comes into play here and explains how mental and spiritual realms are the same thingm
The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.
explanation -------> another mention of the mental realm , not just some illusion , and the images shown , aka the term you took out of context earlier is succeeded directly by the term " actions taken " , this means whats being seen and done in the Tsukuyomi realm is under the caster's command , not the images the opponent is dirrectly seeing, the opponent is directly vieweing the Tsukuyomi realm when under Tsukuyomi and thus will see what the realm shows.
so no , nowhere does the databook entry contradicts itself with the exception of Genjutsu/Ninjutsu listing , but as explained , that is mere semantics.
Consistency wise It calls Tsukuyomi:
oh again with the " its mere illusion " nonsense? an illusion in literal terms is a mere mirage , something you see but doesn't exactly exist or is present , this could happen due to countless reasons such as stress or mental illness , when seeing an illusion you are still capable of thinking , like Danzou was capable of thinking and realizing that he is under an illusion , now that is an illusion but there is far more to Genjutsu then mere illusion.
mind control -----> achieved by countless genjutsu users.
memory manipulation -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi and basic sharingan.
information Manipulation -----> achieved by any sharingan.
sleep inducement -----> achieved by countless genjutsu and any sharingan.
Dream manipulation -----> achieved by any sharingan.
memory erasure ----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
personality erasure -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
Soul destruction and death manipulation -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
all of the things above are not being achieved by an illusion
The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi.
C'mon man , this is wayyy too much selective reading for this to actually be funny.oh now we're jumping from illusion to hypnosis , are we? why don't you read the text right next to the hypnosis part"Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!"oh wait? the very same paragraph that mentions the hypnosis part , a vague term that just be chalked up to the manipulation of one's mind , aka exactly what Tsukuyomi is , tearing away one's mind to a strange realm of infinity under itachi's control and simply torturing , destroying or effecting it in other ways , regardless that can be defined as a manipulation of one's mind/soul.
Then the novel you try to reference has Tsukuyomi supposedly affect reality even though that literally breaks all of canon... since Izanagi should be the ONLY thing sharingan/genjutsu wise which effects actual reality. Also by the looks of things Tsukuyomi isn't even the strongest like the databook surmises as Izanagi by the looks of things is leagues better (though it does have a cost though).
what am i supposed to take this as more then you begging me to ignore canon so your " its just an illusion it can't actually effect the person bro" headcanonical garbage can stay on? Yikes but that is not going to happen , Tsukuyomi can quite literally kill people and age them , that is effecting their Physical body as heart needs to stop for death and the larynx needs to be aged
Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu, it is an illusion Sasuke and Itachi both say it's a "dream" or illusion... meanwhile Izanagi also a Genjutsu is called essentially the strongest ever as it can actually affect reality. Where is the confusion!? Tsukuyomi doesn't affect reality it isn't Izanagi and it is explicitly outlined to NOT affect reality all it does is affect the mind... like all genjutsu but to a greater degree since it can affect the illusions length.
Tsukuyomi normally doesn't effect the physical plane because Tsukuyomi is a jutsu that takes place in a mental spiritual realm , not on the physical realm , but as proven by Izumi it can and will effect reality and downright kill and age people and even age their internal organs such as Larynx if commanded to.
the only specific outlining that it cannot actually do something to people is from itachi in a fight where he was quite literally fighting to lose but why mention that context when you have an agenda to push?
Also in the very Databook you use it says:
more databook misinterpretation , woohoo
Namely, this means inside the genjutsu
As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches...
Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency.
The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi.
Inside the genjutsu = Mental realm = psyches = coconscious = mind = etc... Then there's the panels of which show that once again:
Oh , Mental realm is the Genjutsu? sorry man but its also a spiritual realm.
Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
the psyche is the mental realm? Nope! , the psyche of the opponent is dragged into the mental realm which won't be the case if the psyche was the mental realm.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations
so sure , Psyche = mind = consciouness , and that Psyche=mind=consciouness is dragged into another mental/spiritual realm of infinity completely under itachi's control and nothing you've posted actually contradicts that description.
Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu which you trap your opponent in that's how it's always been I can keep showing panels if you want...
you just post the same panels over and over so keep doing it , its not gonna make the jutsu and illusion or a dream
Anyways just stop trying to say Tsukuyomi is an actual different dimension which is manifested it isn't,
yea it is , as clearly shown and explained , its a spiritual realm of infinity with no common sense or limitations completely under the whim of its caster.
it's an genjutsu sure you can say it's a 'realm" in the mind...
Not exactly , our minds don't have strange realms of infinity not even under our but somehow under itachi's control, this is just clutching at straws mate.
but that's just a dream as Itachi and Sasuke say not an actual world.
not really as dreams or illusions don't actually make you braindead/age your organs/erase your memory and personality or downright kill you , all things Tsukuyomi have achieved at one point or another , sorry mate but it is a soul)mind BFR into a realm under complete itachi's control and as feats show , it can effect the real bodies of people, so Yes Tsukuyomi is a technique that rips your soul and mind out of body , drags it into a strange spiritual realm beyond the physical limitations which is under the omnipotent control of Itachi.
@thenamelessone: You've done absolutely NOTHING to disprove the panels and pages I provided... then you continue to act as if Tsukuyomi is some crazy special genjutsu that BFR's a person's soul even though that makes no sense since that would literally instantly kill them by removing their soul and putting it elsewhere... since you know their soul wouldn't be in their body anymore... and just like how Pain removes peoples souls and kills them Tsukuyomi would too... if that where the case... but it doesn't, it doesn't kill you, it doesn't BFR your soul, nor does it ever show that it BFR's your soul, it doesn't do any of that at all.
And then again like I said why do you act as if the databooks and novel are anything to put over the actual manga in fact your adamant that Tsukuyomi affects the real world even though as I said Izanagi is quite literally the ONLY genjutsu to affect reality and is touted and explicitly said as such yet you keep on acting as if the most outlier of outliers in a NOVEL makes you somehow right... it's ridiculous... you've already been disproven several times over by all the words of Sasuke, Danzo, Itachi, and Zetsu who are essentially the authority on the subject of the sharingan/uchiha.
And the reason I keep posting the pages over and over again is because you quite literally refuse to acknowledge the fact that right in the manga it says that Tsukuyomi is just a genjutsu/illusion... oh and stop trying to be like "oh but you said it was an illusion not hypnosis" as in Naruto Genjutsu is the equivalent of hypnosis but it just uses "illusions" to do it.
All I need to do is post these panel's and then I'm right since it's said right in the manga what Tsukuyomi is capable of and what it does.
Gallery
It says it like all right there, right in the manga.... there shouldn't be any confusion about this.
Anyways that'll be my last post since seemingly you think Tsukuyomi BFR's your soul... like what in the world as what your saying is news to me since I never knew Tsukuyomi a genjutsu became the new Death Reaper Seal or the new Human Path because that's like what your trying to say when it BFR's your soul... whatever this'll be the last post on the Tsukuyomi issue... hope you can get the last word in @thenamelessone...
But before you go I'll just highlight this part of your post so you can't backpedal your statement on the "soul BFR" or the fact that Tsukuyomi doesn't directly affect the real world.
it can effect the real bodies of people, so Yes Tsukuyomi is a technique that rips your soul and mind out of body, drags it into a strange spiritual realm beyond the physical limitations which is under the omnipotent control of Itachi.
Anyways Tsukuyomi doesn't affect reality all it does is inflict mental damage and it is a powerful "illusion." That'll be all. Good day.
You've done absolutely NOTHING to disprove the panels and pages I provided...
No , a better statement would be that your pages and panels did absolutely nothing to disprove my stance.
then you continue to act as if Tsukuyomi is some crazy special genjutsu that BFR's a person's soul even though that makes no sense since that would literally instantly kill them by removing their soul and putting it elsewhere... since you know their soul wouldn't be in their body anymore... and just like how Pain removes peoples souls and kills them Tsukuyomi would too... if that where the case... but it doesn't, it doesn't kill you, it doesn't BFR your soul, nor does it ever show that it BFR's your soul, it doesn't do any of that at all.
except its directly stated that it does transport your soul into a mental/spiritual realm under the whim of itachi? like directly stated without any contradiction?
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
what pain is doing is nothing like transporting souls lol , he is stripping bodies of their souls and putting the souls in a physical space aka the real world while itachi is merely putting the soul in another mental/Spiritual realm , the soul still exists in a similar mental/spiritual realm the same way they exist in Naruto's inner consciouness/mind , not a complex concept.
And then again like I said why do you act as if the databooks and novel are anything to put over the actual manga in fact your adamant that Tsukuyomi affects the real world even though as I said Izanagi is quite literally the ONLY genjutsu to affect reality and is touted and explicitly said as such
Izinagi isn't a genjutsu, its a dojutsu , but if Izinagi is a genjutsu by your own admission and logic , that directly disproves the idea that not all Genjutsu are illusions as Izinagi , which you consider to be a Genjutsu , is explicitly not an illusion.
yet you keep on acting as if the most outlier of outliers in a NOVEL makes you somehow right... it's ridiculous...
lol , so basically if anything disproves your personal headcanon of illusionary Tsukuyomi its basically an outlier even though all Genjutsu just being illusions is contradicted by the manga itself? lol.
you've already been disproven several times over
not really , your entire argument is genjutsu = just illusions which is debunked by tens of Genjutsu feats.
by all the words of Sasuke,
who doesn't explain anything about the mechanics of Tsukuyomi and of how it exactly works , so another non factor of a statement you're gonna post 50 times for it to seem reasonable.
Danzo,
who doesn't even comment on Tsukuyomi furthur then that sasuke's sharingan Genjutsu is absolutely garbage in comparasion to Tsukuyomi which it clearly is.
Itachi,
oh the same Itachi that could explicitly have killed Sasuke at any moment but decided not to and was intending to throw/lose the battle against Sasuke? but wait , whh mention that context eh?
and Zetsu
zetsu? the same dude that never put in Tsukuyomi? another mind boggling example.
who are essentially the authority on the subject of the sharingan/uchiha.
they are but you've spectacularly misinterpretated everything that has been said by the characters , you take illusions far too literally , when thats just saying that what happens in Genjutsu isn't a part of physical reality.
And the reason I keep posting the pages over and over again is because you quite literally refuse to acknowledge the fact that right in the manga it says that Tsukuyomi is just a genjutsu/illusion...
Oh I refuse to acknowledge it , I remember typing out a full blown counter argument to the idea that all Genjutsu are just illusions, Oh wait I did.
oh again with the " its mere illusion " nonsense? an illusion in literal terms is a mere mirage , something you see but doesn't exactly exist or is present , this could happen due to countless reasons such as stress or mental illness , when seeing an illusion you are still capable of thinking , like Danzou was capable of thinking and realizing that he is under an illusion , now that is an illusion but there is far more to Genjutsu then mere illusion.
mind control -----> achieved by countless genjutsu users.
memory manipulation -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi and basic sharingan.
information Manipulation -----> achieved by any sharingan.
sleep inducement -----> achieved by countless genjutsu and any sharingan.
Dream manipulation -----> achieved by any sharingan.
memory erasure ----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
personality erasure -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
Soul destruction and death manipulation -----> achieved by Tsukuyomi.
all of the things above are not being achieved by an illusion
oh and stop trying to be like "oh but you said it was an illusion not hypnosis" as in Naruto Genjutsu is the equivalent of hypnosis but it just uses "illusions" to do it.
oh so first your explanation for why Genjutsu can mind control or brainwash was "well hypnosis can achieve that" now the argument is that "well the hypnosis is based on illusions" but you and I both know that illusions cannot brainwash or mind control so basically you're saying the basis of genjutsu is illusion , practically the cause of genjutsu is illusion but the effect of genjutsu is nothing like the effect of illusions? what is it? I will tell you what it is , it controls your consciouness/mind/soul as genjutsu consistently work on a spiritual level which is supported by the basic mechanics of the verse , and that practically explains all inconsistencies in the verse.
All I need to do is post these panel's and then I'm right since it's said right in the manga what Tsukuyomi is capable of and what it does.
these panels don't exactly prove anything , they use the word illusion vaguely when countless genjutsu feats contradict the idea that genjutsu is just a basic illusion creation , and the countless feats would take prescendence for one vague usage of a term.
It says it like all right there, right in the manga.... there shouldn't be any confusion about this.
I have a better source , almost a body of text just about Tsukuyomi itself and not some contradicted illusion which is an idea contradicted by countless usage of Genjutsu.
An inner hell as eternal as Heaven and Earth. The grip held onto the principles of all creation thoroughly annihilates one’s heart and soul!! The ultimate doujutsu made possible only by Mangekyou Sharingan.
Amidst the insight and hypnosis possessed by Sharingan, is a supreme genjutsu, born from the aforementioned hypnosis: Tsukuyomi. Originally, people on the face of the Earth live bound by limitations like time, gravity, and space; and how people exert their abilities within those restrictions is what separates the victors from the vanquished. But in the mental world where the caster drags their opponent, the Tsukuyomi jutsu gives them control over those very limitations!
Namely, this means inside the genjutsu, the physical world’s common sense is completely irrelevant and opposing the caster is impossible. Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster’s hands. Some time, they will undergo the torments of Hell, and some other time, they will be repeatedly shown a horrendous, hellish picture of agony and mayhem, with no idea of when either of those will end. As a result, the poor prisoner can only wait until the collapse of their psyches…!! Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.
Sharingan is the Kekkei Genkai of the clan labelled as the most powerful, the Uchiha Clan. Even among those who have Sharingan, that jutsu cannot be operated without having Mangekyou, which is its culminating point. Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors… And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. Once could say this is truly a God-given jutsu solely allowed to those blessed with Uchiha blood and prodigious aptitudes.
The moment the adversary is exposed to Mangekyou Sharingan, a strange realm as they’ve never seen before extends before their eyes. In there, the world’s principles themselves obey the caster’s beck and call.
Since attacks in the spiritual realm have no power to physically wound or kill, it bestows an unfathomable amount of mental damage.
Only those of Uchiha blood… Does it mean only Sasuke has a chance to break a Tsukuyomi?
The phenomena that happen inside of the mental realm are entirely the caster’s to command. Which is to say, the images shown or the actions taken can be changed according to the opponent in order to yield maximum efficiency
Anyways that'll be my last post since seemingly you think Tsukuyomi BFR's your soul...
I don't think that Tsukuyomi BFRs a soul to a strange realm that is under the complete control of Itachi who effortlessly and completely controls the realm , as thats what canon potrays.
like what in the world as what your saying is news to me since I never knew Tsukuyomi a genjutsu became the new Death Reaper Seal or the new Human Path because that's like what your trying to say when it BFR's your soul...
Reaper Death seal quite literally tears your soul from your body into the actual real physical space and either absorbs it or seals it into the death reaper's belly meanwhile Tsukuyomi is merely transporting your mind/soul into another spiritual/mental space , we've seen how the souls and minds of the tailed beasts entered Naruto's consciouness/inner mind aka a mental/spiritual realm inside of Naruto and the said tailed beasts were still very much alive , its a consistent concept mate.
whatever this'll be the last post on the Tsukuyomi issue...
sure things it not like much else is left to be said.
hope you can get the last word in @thenamelessone...
sure thing.
But before you go I'll just highlight this part of your post so you can't backpedal your statement on the "soul BFR" or the fact that Tsukuyomi doesn't directly affect the real world
I don't need to backpeddle on anything , Tsukuyomi can effect real physical space in some ways and the main mechanic of the technique is a mental/spiritual BFR into a strange realm completely under the control of the caster.
Anyways Tsukuyomi doesn't affect reality
it does , erasing memory and personality with a look , actually killing and aging people , actually effecting and aging the body parts such as Larynx e.t.c. are all examples that can effect the real world.
all it does is inflict mental damage
jokes on you , random fodder illusions don't exactly erase personalities , make people braindead or kill people.
and it is a powerful "illusion."
jokes on you , random fodder illusions don't exactly erase personalities , make people braindead or kill people and its already disproven that all the Genjutsu are illusions as they've effects far different then basic illusions.
That'll be all. Good day.
you're still completely misunderstanding Tsukuyomi, it can effect the real bodies of people, so Yes Tsukuyomi is a technique that rips your soul and mind out of body, drags it into a strange spiritual realm beyond the physical limitations which is under the omnipotent control of Itachi , Good day.
1) Infinite Tsukoyomi caster benefits from not having to waste as much energy over a period of time. You just cast the Jutsu and it's over with.
Isn't that because they use the tree to take their chakra in fact the only reason why the jutsu could be used was because they stole an exorbitant amount of Chakra. Meanwhile Uta does her feat self maintained using her own power to maintain an entire parallel dimension/world.
Pretty much. Uta is much more impressive when you put in that way but not having to expend energy constantly is still much more practical then having to constantly maintain it.
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