Why all the obsession with IPS panels?

[skyform]

Imo IPS panels are overrated! Why do you think that they are used less and less for TV's because they are very limited when it comes to contrast and contrast is very important for a LCD TV or monitor!

I recently bought a NEC EX231Wp which is a cPVA panel and replaced my 6 year old Samsung 971p which is a sPVA panel and has a better contrast than any IPS panel so i really didn't want to go a step back and went for a VA again.

My brother also owns the Samsung F2380M and the NEC uses exactly the same cPVA panel as F2380M. You can see this clearly when puting them side by side which i of course did but the LED helps the NEC to achive a better contrast, nicer whites, brighter picture, better shadow detail and even the colours are nicer and more acurated but that's of course not because of LED. I also did a comparison in a completely dark room and compared some movie and darker pictures.

The blacks and the contrast on the EX231Wp are really awesome for a monitor, they look close to my Philips Edge LED TV which has a contrast over 5000:1 contrast! F2380M already has great blacks but EX231Wp goes even blacker and trust me you won't want to own a IPS panel after seeing this monitor, especially in a dark room, it will spoil you! Oh and btw the F2380M and F2380MX don't have any black crush! NCX already tried to explain this but many people didn't listen to him. The thing is people didn't calibrate the F2380M and F2380MX properly. You have to set the gamma to 1.8 on the F2380M, F2380MX and even EX231Wp and not to 2.2. People and reviewers who said it has a balck crush probably did this wrong!

VA panels have great colors, great viewing angle, exellent contrast/blacks and very important good backlight uniformity. Uniformity on my EX231Wp is really good, even better than on the non LED Samsung F2380M! VA panels also have a lighter AG coating than any modern IPS panel. AG coating on the EX231Wp is exactly the same as on F2380M so the text is really nice and crisp.

IPS probably became so popular because of gamers. In the last years everything is more focused towards gaming, just look even the 16.10 formats are this days more rare than 16:9. I would never trade the high contrast with a lower response time, oh and some years ago i was playing my Xbox 360 on my old Samsung 971p and i wasn't bothered by the response time at all. Of course the TN or IPS panel will have less input lag and better motion because of the lower response time but the rest will look worse on TN and IPS will only have better viewing angles which are already good enaugh on a VA panel, colours won't look any better on a cheaper e-IPS panel, probably only on the very expensive high range H-IPS!

Oh and btw just that you won't think i have never seen anything else then a VA in my life, well my bro also has a IPS DELL, some of my friends have TN, we have tons of TN's at my job and i have also had my hands on the Dell U2412M and i do calibrate my displays with a Spyder 3 Pro. Honestly the only IPS display that i liked so far is the Apple LED Cinema Display but it's really expensive and is kind of limitless for PC user because of it's connection! Not everyone has a graphic card witha midi display port or want's to pay extra 200-300 for a freaking adapter!

I can understand that hardcore online gamers want as little input as as possible and a very fast response time, pq isn't that important to them that's why they choose an cheap TN or IPS panel but i wouldn't want to sacrifice the picture quality for playing just a campaign or watching movies and if graphics in games are important to you than you also need the best possible display to enjoy them. Imo a LCD LED TV is the best option for console games but maybe not for PC.

I luckly don't use my monitor for games or movies, this is why i have my TV for so for me it was an easy decision to get a VA monitor because they are definitively better for browsing, programing and even watching or editing pictures than IPS in the same price range, actually even watching movies because of the awesome blacks.

Oh and btw i also do take photos and photoshop them and i did that on my old Samsung 971p until now and i didn't had any problems with it!

 

[wagoo]

The contrast looked fantastic in reviews of the EX231Wp, but the reduced viewing angles compared to the older CCFL backlit cPVA screens were a bit off-putting. What's your impression of the lightening of the picture and reduction of contrast off angle compared to the F2380M, since you have access to both models?

 

[griffinhart]

Most of the "obsession" with IPS panels has been when being compared to TN panels. VA panels are quite good, though a bit of a tradeoff. While VA have the best contrast of the three technologies, VA still suffer from off-center color/contrast shift. That isn't to say they have decent viewing angle, but that the color accuracy drops when not looking dead on center.

In a nutshell:
TN panels have the fastest response times, but terrible viewing angles and the worse color accuracy and only have a 6-bit color depth.

VA panels have the best black depths of the technologies, and much improved viewing angles over TN panels, and even 8-bit color depth, but do suffer from color/contrast shifting when not looking straight on. VA panels are probably the best for viewing media and a very good all around choice.

IPS panels have the best color reproduction, the best viewing angles and the absolute least color/contrast shifting available. They are simply the best when dealing with any "color critical" jobs.

Though you did mention two specific displays The Dell U2312M and the NEC EX231Wp. If I were looking at one or the other, I would take the dell. While the NEC would have a nicer contrast, the Dell would still have better color, viewing angles, larger screen and higher resolultion than the NEC. There are just more +'s in the dell column than the NEC column in this specific comparison. On the other hand, if that NEC was a 24" with the same resolution, It would be a very serious consideration for me.

All that said, I will never buy another TN panel.

It's worth mentioning too, until very recently, VA panels were extremely rare, and far more expensive than they are today. IPS panels, while they have been more expensive, have still been relatively easy to find.

 

[skyform]

The contrast looked fantastic in reviews of the EX231Wp, but the reduced viewing angles compared to the older CCFL backlit cPVA screens were a bit off-putting. What's your impression of the lightening of the picture and reduction of contrast off angle compared to the F2380M, since you have access to both models?

Horizontal angle is almost identical on both monitors but vertical is a bit worse on the EX231Wp, the blacks and colors wash out faster.

Though you did mention two specific displays The Dell U2312M and the NEC EX231Wp. If I were looking at one or the other, I would take the dell. While the NEC would have a nicer contrast, the Dell would still have better color, viewing angles, larger screen and higher resolultion than the NEC. There are just more +'s in the dell column than the NEC column in this specific comparison. On the other hand, if that NEC was a 24" with the same resolution, It would be a very serious consideration for me.

Sure U2312M and U2412M have better viewing angles of course but colors nope, not at all. It is true that the vertical color shift on the EX231Wp is a bit annoying because you always have to sit right for perfect picture but most of people would call us demanding people crazy and too picky if you wold tell them that it has bad or not good wnaugh viewing angles.

As i already said imo the Dell wins only in viewing angles, response time and input lag, colors are very similar and everything goes to NEC. I don't want a IPS even just because of the annoying AG coating.

 

[rushaoz]

Ips is cool. Technically better for gaming. Tbh they are overrated. I used a Sony ex400 for my main PC monitor and gaming and I notice no motion blur or input lag. You wanna know what's really overrated? 120/240hz.
60 and 24hz ftw

 

[Sailor_Moon]

The thing is people didn't calibrate the F2380M and F2380MX properly. You have to set the gamma to 1.8 on the F2380M, F2380MX and even EX231Wp and not to 2.2. People and reviewers who said it has a balck crush probably did this wrong!

The gradation characteristic of the F2380 is quite screwed regarding bright and dark midtones, independent from the OSD setting. In addition all transformations are lossy because of the 8bit LUT. A software calibration helps to achieve the desired characteristic (= sRGB gradation for sRGB sources) including neutrality but the necessary alterations of the videocard LUT are reducing the range of tonal values further (and you have to ensure that these alterations are are kept persistent in the LUT when for example playing games).

These problems are of course no inherent characteristic of the C-PVA panel itself. Paired with an extensive electronic you can get very satisfying results. A good example are the two Eizo screens (EV2333, FS231) which feature an extensive OSD, losless transformations of the input signal and an excellent neutrality - especially when considering their price class.

Best regards

Denis

 

[wagoo]

I would say diagonal IPS glow makes any perception of IPS having better viewing angles rather pointless, without an A-TW polarizer anyway.

I'm sure we all wish *VA had better motion and no black crush, and IPS all came with A-TW polarizers and concentrated on black depth more.

S-PVA left, eIPS right:

 

[griffinhart]

Sure U2312M and U2412M have better viewing angles of course but colors nope, not at all. It is true that the vertical color shift on the EX231Wp is a bit annoying because you always have to sit right for perfect picture but most of people would call us demanding people crazy and too picky if you wold tell them that it has bad or not good wnaugh viewing angles.

As i already said imo the Dell wins only in viewing angles, response time and input lag, colors are very similar and everything goes to NEC. I don't want a IPS even just because of the annoying AG coating.

The color shifting is why I think IPS is better for it and why most professionals use IPS. But the of everything you listed, for my needs, I rate viewing angle, color shift, inputlag and response time higher than contrast ratio, which isn't exactly terrible on a good IPS panel.

I'm not even begining to suggest that VA is a poor choice. No matter what type of panel one choses, you make compromises. Some are more important to others depending on the needs of the user, and I certainly don't rule out a VA panel. But for my needs and usage, that Dell 24 fits the bill while the NEC does not. A lot of the reasons are panel technology agnostic as well. Screen size and Resolution are important for me. Especially resolution. I can't stand 1080p monitors.

I do a ton remote desktop sessions at 1200x1024 and 1080p is just slightly too low of a resolution. I hate having scroll bars on my remote desktops. That reason alone is enough for me to select the dell over the NEC.

rushaoz, I agree with you on the 120Hz displays. I find them extremely over rated. I run both a Dell IPS display and an Acer 120Hz display, and I find the IPS better for just about everything. The only benefit on my acer is the 3D gaming, which I rarely use and is a bit gimickey.

 

[Nosliw]

I like VA too. My IPS TV is not impressive as a monitor and pretty bad as a TV. Never again.

 

[ToastyX]

I hate how the viewing angles wash out the colors on VA panels even when you're sitting right in front of the monitor unless you're sitting five feet away. I don't understand how so many people don't see that. I've even seen people claim their VA monitor doesn't have gamma shifting, then show a picture where the gamma shift can clearly be seen.

VA panels are worse in every way except contrast, but contrast only affects black depth. It doesn't affect colors, so the contrast difference isn't even noticeable most of the time.

This is what a contrast difference looks like when both monitors are calibrated:

The monitor on the left has twice the contrast, yet it hardly makes a difference. The only time I could see a difference was when displaying something completely dark in a dark room, but then the gamma shift on the VA monitor would wash everything else out.

Keep in mind those pictures were taken from a distance where the gamma shift didn't affect the VA monitor.

This is what happens from a typical viewing distance:

VA panel:

IPS panel:

You can see a little bit of IPS glow in the lower left corner, but the gamma shift on the VA panel is worse than the IPS glow. So tell me, why would I want a panel that washes out colors and smears motion just for a minor visible difference in contrast?

TVs are different. I would prefer a VA panel for a TV that would be viewed from a distance where the gamma shift wouldn't affect the colors, but for a computer monitor, I don't see the point.

 

[MaZa]

I'm sure we all wish *VA had better motion and no black crush, and IPS all came with A-TW polarizers and concentrated on black depth more.

But thats the thing, *VA technology has improved dramatically during last few years! Look at modern TVs, we have *VA panels (like my Sony with inferior A-MVA panel instead of S-PVA thanks to panel lottery) with absolutely no black crush, good response time even on dark shades AND is capable of active shutter 3D which requires 120hz refresh rate at minimum from the panel and low response times to avoid crosstalk. High-end Sonys are even capable of actual 240hz without backlight scanning to remove 3D flickering completely. *sigh* if only they could accept 240hz input...

Horizontal viewing angles are still a problem, although they are quite good with modern S-PVA panels but even on my A-MVA picture is very even when viewed straight on.


It seems like when it comes to *VAs in computer monitors all they put are some second grade or old-tech based panels when they could be so much more. Technology for ideal movie & gamer monitors are already there, use them damnit! Although now that I mention it, AUO has already reported that they have started making 24"-27" 120hz AMVA panels, hopefully we see them in monitors soon AND hopefully they take 120hz input aswell.

 

[MaZa]

*snip*

Do you have a fullscreen picture of that pattern so that I could test it out on my TV?

 

[ToastyX]

VA panels in TVs have good response times because the overdrive buffers and analyzes several frames, which adds lag that wouldn't be suitable for computer use. It's fine for watching TV and movies since you're not controlling anything.

Do you have a fullscreen picture of that pattern so that I could test it out on my TV?

http://www.toastyx.net/mountain-1080p.jpg

 

[MaZa]

VA panels in TVs have good response times because the overdrive buffers and analyzes several frames, which adds lag that wouldn't be suitable for computer use. It's fine for watching TV and movies since you're not controlling anything.


http://www.toastyx.net/mountain-1080p.jpg

Hmmm... Makes sense. Although overdrive has been a norm in monitors for some time now I guess there is a limit how aggressive it can be before the input lag becomes unbearable. Now I am getting curious if/how AUO manages to go around that if their new panels find their way into PC monitor market. Although in game mode, where input lag is not an issue on my TV, response time is worse than in Cinema mode but still better than in my old Samsung.

Thanks for the pic.

 

[MaZa]

Tested the picture. IRL the picture is perfectly even. Although I did test by taking a picture with a camera and there is some noticeable shift but it greatly exaggerates the effect. Looks nothing like what I actually see in the monitor. Actually I think it is the edge leds the camera is picking up more than any gamma shift.

I need a better camera, badly, because now the thing started to bother me... :/

 

[Sailor_Moon]

Some additional information that also refers to the hue shifts (S-PVA and C-PVA panels are currently showing the most convenient behaviour of all VA panels regarding these deviations):

http://quato.de/german/manuals/Whitepaper_IP262_240.pdf
(8-10)

Color critical work should be concentrated at the middle area of the screen when using a VA panel. Nevertheless: A high quality screen with VA panel is a good allrounder. I'm still using my S-PVA screen but it is (apart from the fact that Samsung now concentrates more on the TV sector regarding their panel production) understandable that IPS is the dominant panel type for screens aiming at color critical tasks.

Best regards

Denis

 

[mathesar]

I have a TN panel (PX2370) and CPVA (2333T) sitting side by side and the VA has far better contrast / black depth.

It's just a shame the motion clarity on the C-PVA isnt that great, But i've still been playing Skyrim on it anyhow the darker areas & night time have far better shadow details vs my TN.

I cannot stand an LCD with weak black levels which is why ive never considered IPS.

 

[Daemos]

I choose IPS because I use a plasma TV as a secondary input

 

[suiken_2mieu]

Well I used to use TN's exclusively (they were cheap), but then I got an amazing deal on a 3007wfp and it blew the shit out of my other displays, so I slowly replaced everything with ips panels. That being said I can never go back to TN's. There always seems to be a halo around text on those monitors.

 

[Bergkamp]

"Imo IPS panels are overrated!"


"You have to set the gamma to 1.8 on the F2380M, F2380MX and even EX231Wp and not to 2.2. People and reviewers who said it has a balck crush probably did this wrong!"


"IPS probably became so popular because of gamers."

"Of course the TN or IPS panel will have less input lag and better motion because of the lower response time but the rest will look worse on TN and IPS will only have better viewing angles which are already good enaugh on a VA panel, "colours won't look any better on a cheaper e-IPS panel, probably only on the very expensive high range H-IPS!"

"Honestly the only IPS display that i liked so far is the Apple LED Cinema Display but it's really expensive"

never have read so many BS in one post.

 

[skyform]

I hate how the viewing angles wash out the colors on VA panels even when you're sitting right in front of the monitor unless you're sitting five feet away. I don't understand how so many people don't see that. I've even seen people claim their VA monitor doesn't have gamma shifting, then show a picture where the gamma shift can clearly be seen.

VA panels are worse in every way except contrast, but contrast only affects black depth. It doesn't affect colors, so the contrast difference isn't even noticeable most of the time.

This is what a contrast difference looks like when both monitors are calibrated:

The monitor on the left has twice the contrast, yet it hardly makes a difference. The only time I could see a difference was when displaying something completely dark in a dark room, but then the gamma shift on the VA monitor would wash everything else out.

Keep in mind those pictures were taken from a distance where the gamma shift didn't affect the VA monitor.

This is what happens from a typical viewing distance:

VA panel:


IPS panel:


You can see a little bit of IPS glow in the lower left corner, but the gamma shift on the VA panel is worse than the IPS glow. So tell me, why would I want a panel that washes out colors and smears motion just for a minor visible difference in contrast?

TVs are different. I would prefer a VA panel for a TV that would be viewed from a distance where the gamma shift wouldn't affect the colors, but for a computer monitor, I don't see the point.

Samsung F2380M and NEC EX231Wp don't have black crush, maybe the F2380 had it but F2380M doesn't.

Man you can't compare contrast of two monitors with thumbnail pictures. Anyway you can see even on this little tiny pictures that the VA panel wins, just look how more clearly you can see the stars, on the IPS panel you can barely see some which are clearly noticable on the VA.

Once you will see a IPS monitor with VA side by side in reality you might change your mind.

I agree with you about the gamma shift, but even with it the VA still looks better too me and way less grey than IPS, well everyone has it's own taste.

 

[tk-don]

The blacks and the contrast on the EX231Wp are really awesome for a monitor, they look close to my Philips Edge LED TV which has a contrast over 5000:1 contrast

Which Philips edge-lit LED TV exactly? Philips used to be in a joint venture with LG and solely relied on IPS panels for LG's and Philips' own TVs (except the cheap ones which were TN and "outsourced"). After they left the LCD manufacturing business, they still use LG panels as far as i know - and it would be pretty stupid to choose another panel technology from a different manufacturer, when they already decided to confirm that they'll abandon the LCD TV market completely next year.

Regarding TVs and contrast: If you removed all the fancy electronics and just used the panel with an LCD controller directly, you'd achieve about the same contrast ratios as a comparable desktop monitor using the same technology generation, when you're done calibrating the display. LCD TVs (or Plasmas) are a far cry in color accuracy compared to entry level IPS/VA desktop monitors, since they offer very limited amount of calibration options (and no LUT).

My first external monitor after a CRT was an Eizo S2243W. To me it looked bad with poor viewing angles at especially darker colors - and massive gamma shifts. I selected it, because it was "Eizo" and "WUXGA at just 22"". Furthermore, it had no real calibration facilities to let me correct this so that it would look a bit better when sitting directly in front of it. The monitor was $800 here, which I realized was a bit disgusting for what now did appear as an entry level Eizo with wide gamut display with no proper calibration options. So it was quickly returned, and I've never looked at S-PVA again.
So I was lucky to buy an A-TW IPS monitor from NEC for about the same, and am still glad I did. Not sure what I would have done today, when that option isn't available... CRT again maybe.
I agree IPS is becoming a bit overrated, especially compared to their drawbacks and that at the lower price segment, VA is often over-looked. I have never seen a review of any VA equipped monitor which didn't exhibit very noticeable gamma shifts as a function of viewing angle - and all the eIPS panels appears to "feature" white glow... so it's just a matter of choosing one's poison.
The rate of innovation seems to be very slow... almost going backwards at some points

 

[skyform]

Which Philips edge-lit LED TV exactly? Philips used to be in a joint venture with LG and solely relied on IPS panels for LG's and Philips' own TVs (except the cheap ones which were TN and "outsourced"). After they left the LCD manufacturing business, they still use LG panels as far as i know - and it would be pretty stupid to choose another panel technology from a different manufacturer, when they already decided to confirm that they'll abandon the LCD TV market completely next year.

Yeah Philips used to work with LG. I have the Philips 40PFL8605 TV which uses Sharp's U2VA panel created in year 2010, so it's a VA panel I also have a Philips 37" LCD TV with a AUO panel and had a 2010 model of a LG Edge LED LCD TV at home for a test, which had a IPS panel and it was already horrible compared to the Philips 2009 model, the blacks were so grey, just unacceptable.

 

[Sycraft]

I like IPS panels because I find them to look the best for computer monitors. I never had a TN monitor at home, they just don't do it for me quality wise. I'm fussy about colour. The first LCD I got was a VA and while I wasn't unhappy with it, it could be better. In particular I noticed the thing looked better when I was farther away. When 'd lay in bed, about 12 feet away from the screen I said "Man that looks good." It looked fine close up, but not as good.

I now have an IPS panel, and it looks better to me. I don't hate VA or anything, my TV is VA, but for computer monitors IPS looks the best to me.

 

[XoR]

gamma shouldn't change with viewing angles at all and from LCD only IPS tech can deliver that. VA is tolerable on some high-end LCD-TVs but those have far better viewing angles characteristics and are much faster.

I had F2380 and it had terrible gamma shift that made me always wonder if I am properly cendered to part of screen I look at. Just see this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOkGjFru4x0 Isn't this ridiculous?

and when we are talking about cPVA it's worth noting those monitors smears bad. It wouldn't be that bad if all transitions were equal but it's not the case here: black -> grey transitions take up to to few frames and it made this monitor totally unsuitable for anything moving. Combine that with poor static (viewing angle) performance and you have monitor that is only good for text work with it's good CR, pixel structure and coating.

ps. ofcourse f2380 need calibration bad. Without it it's just worst looking monitor ever. F2380M have identical lut and identical problems. F2380MX and 2333T are monitors that have it fixed.

 

[elvn]

Its all tradeoffs. In my experience....

IPS has gorgeous imagery/color/uniformity, very high ppi/resolution available. IPS blurs most obnoxiously on fast FoV movement on the highest detail texured + "3d" depth via bump mapping modern games when set near their graphics quality cielings. Black levels are inferior (especially for movies, etc) but adequate for desktop and images imo. Beautiful desktop/application and imagery monitors, simpler textured games. Many high rez ips also have tradeoffs in that they might have a scaler included in some models (which causes input lag), and many have an over-aggressive AG coating (which is why I went with the apple which has no scaler and is glossy - my personal preference).
.
VA has very good blacklevels for modern VA LCD screens (like my glossy samsung tv). VA typically very laggy (input lag) for games, and possibly other motion issues.
.
TN has bad color shift/shading (almost like solarization worst case) of part of the screen, but very low response times and usually no input lag. Even the 60hz ones are much faster response panels than my 27" 2560x1440 ips . The ips response time is around 10.x - 12ms on mine if I'm not mistaken. The other high ppi ips screens that don't have scalers like the hp ZR30W and the hazros have around 7ms response time I think. A TN can be 3ms to 5ms grey to grey, and the 120hz ones are supposed to cut the blur "by about half" subjectively. TN color accuracy isn't really there but the 120hz glossy samsungs for example reportedly have very lush (though not really accurate nor uniform across the screen) colors that are enjoyable for games. Of course the ppi is much worse (at desk use distances) when you get to larger TN desktop monitors since no TN desktop monitors go over 1080p (especially 120hz) so that is another tradeoff.
.
I love my ips monitor. The color, uniformity, ppi and desktop real-estate are gorgeous. I'm not willing to give it up. However the blur in the most extreme textured games is making me plan to add my 22.5" fw900 widescreen "graphics professional" crt back into the array as part of a LLL eyefinity setup with a 60hz 21.5" 1080p lcd on each side of it (crt at 1080p 100hz). CRTs have no blur. I'l also eventually have a 27" TN 120hz to test out and compare.
.
So... different monitors for different tasks. The are all superior to each other in different tradefoffs. Unfortunately no monitor has the best of everything, so I've found I prefer running at least two different monitor techs at my desk. Not the cheapest option but the only way to get the "best" (at least the "better") of each.
.. My Samsung 46" 1080p glossy VA tv for high def movies in the living room with a 7.1 surround sound setup. (I really don't need to be watching movies at a desk in their "Best blacks"). My 27" ips for awesome desktop real-estate, apps, images, browsers, general "computer use". CRT or 120hz TN lcd for games, perhaps some short videos.
.
I do use a 1080p glossy TN 17" laptop, and a few 60hz 22" and 23" tn's on a weekly basis too, as well as a 10.1" glossy asus tablet (might be e-ips not sure). As long as I'm not getting any light sources reflected - I think the glossy TN's colors look more lush and black than the non-glossy, but they still don't compare to IPS's particular strengths or a good VA TV's blacklevels and detail-in-blacks (though my VA TV is glossy as well btw).

 

[Zenouv]

sounds like ips for the win!

 

[mathesar]

.
VA has very good blacklevels for modern VA LCD screens (like my glossy samsung tv). VA typically very laggy (input lag) for games, and possibly other motion issues.

I can agree with the motion issues (ghosting) but with the 2333T (C-PVA) input lag is certainly not an issue even with my 2ms TN panel sitting next to it for comparison. I also did this test although I later learned its not a 100% accurate way to measure input lag anymore.

But I know what input lag feels like and It's definitely not there on the 2333T, At least not bad enough to notice.

 

[elvn]

I don't have a lot of VA to compare to other than my tv, which obviously has TV circuitry even in "game mode". Every VA tv I have used has had bad input lag and some smearing/blurring in games, especially as compared to a fast TN computer monitor or a crt. I have read that most modern VA type screens, including computer monitors, suffer from input lag. This is possibly due to some electronics they use now rather than the panel itself idk. They have always come up in conversation as a monitor ill suited to high speed gaming. FYI a good way to subjectively test for input lag is using a music authoring program (musicians, assuming the input method itself is not lagged), or a music game like "Rock band". There are calibration features on such apps and games that will show subjectively how much input lag you are getting and attempt to compensate (rock band uses a metronome you time your clicks to). On my TV the result of the rock band test is at least 38ms - 48ms even in "game mode", but TV's obviously have a scaler(as do some computer monitors) and other circuitry even in "Game mode" and my reation time+click to the metrnome , though fast, is not instant.. (Btw, If I don't turn game mode on the game is pretty much unplayable). Different people are "ok" with input lag and say its not there. When I used to have a westinghouse37" tv as a monitor many people were "Fine" with it, but it had input lag and ghosting.

Here is a blurb from pchardwarehelp.com. I'd be interested in whether people agree with their take or not.

http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/lcd-panel-types.php
" VA (Vertical Alignment) technology such as S-PVA/MVA are middle of the road LCD panels. They offer better color reproduction and wider viewing angles than TN panels, but have slower response times. They are very similar to S-IPS on paper. They also offer large viewing angles and good color reproduction, though not as good as IPS panels. The response times are generally worse than TN or IPS panels and there have been reports of a few VA panels that suffer from input lag, so VA technology is not be the best choice for fast paced gaming.

VA panels have the advantage of higher contrast ratios compared to other panel types, which leads to better black levels. The biggest disadvantage of VA based panels is color shifting. Color shifting is when the image viewed from one angle changes or "shifts" when viewed from a slightly different angle, making various uneven brightness levels across the display. This bothers many users to the point they will not even consider buying a VA based panel, while other users don't notice or aren't bothered by the color shifting. Color shifts also cause a loss of shadow detail in dark scenes when viewed directly from the center.

VA panels are much easier to find compared to IPS since so many manufacturers utilize them for LCD monitors and other displays such as large HDTVs. They offer better image quality than TN at lower price than IPS panels."

 

[XoR]

Samsung C-PVA displays don't have input lag because there is no proper RTC in those monitors. VA need (at least) one frame of input lag to add pretilting voltage to boost some transactions. Similarly A-MVA Benq don't have input lag because again proper RTC is not used there. Though A-MVA was free from ugly black trails and because of that nicer in my opinion than C-PVA in motion performance

 

[Filter]

i just shun at anyone using a tv as a monitor.

 

[elvn]

I think you miss the point of the posts, or maybe skimmed with a lack of reading comprehension - because the points being made aren't geared toward the end result of using a tv as a computer monitor but comparing VA tech itself, which is available in both computer monitors and TVs. I mentioned TV's a few times but was not in any way being a proponent of using them as a computer monitor - quite the opposite if you comprehend what I wrote. The OP also mentioned a few VA computer monitor models not TV models.
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So its all tradeoffs regardless, and VA panels are generally considered a poor choice for high speed gaming. I would add in my experience that high ppi IPS panels which even on models without a scaler which are free of the input lag a scaler adds.. still have 10.xx - 12ms response times in the case of my ACD, and I think 6 or 7ms on the HPZ30W and hazros. So the input lag is fine but the pixels still blur on fast motion.
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All monitors have tradeoffs so you are losing out if you stick to one.
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VA : for video (black levels + detail-in--blacks). I keep this type to my TV in living room for HD video and HDTV as I don't feel that it's worth it vs other tradeoffs on desktop monitors technologies I can combine into my array.
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IPS : Hi-rez (2560+ across or upcoming 3840x2160 QFHD) IPS for gorgeous imagery(incl.uniformity,color, rez+pixel density), desktop/app real-estate, high ppi
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CRT : for gaming. FW900 graphics professional 22.5" viewable widescreen CRT at 85hz to 100hz for zero blur gaming (all LCD's blur)
/OR/
120hz TN LCD: for gaming. Blurs "about half as much" from subjective reports, and that "half as much" may be in comparison to 60hz TN response times rather than my IPS with its 10 - 12ms response time. I'll have one soon to compare.
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I'll add that I think black depth (not detail-in-blacks as that is more panel type dependent -> VA is best out of the LCD tech) and overall lushness of colors tend to look better to my eye on glossy monitors, even TN ones though they lack the detail-in-blacks. I have a glossy VA TV in living room, glossy 2560x1440 IPS cinema display, a 17" 1080p glossy TN "DTR" notebook, a glossy 10.1" 1280x800 IPS (e-ips?) tablet, and a glossy droid X2 phone. I have a 27" 120hz samsung glossy TN shipping out soon too to compare to my 22.5" fw900 crt as well.. dedicated to gaming.. if its not all its cracked up to be I'll return it and stick with the crt until it dies. Either way I'll have an IPS for desktop/app/imagery, desktop real-estate, ppi, uniformity, and some other monitor dedicated to gaming in the same monitor array at my desk. VA will stick to the living room TV.
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Since I am excluding IPS from gaming use, you might wonder why I wouldn't consider VA more strongly as the non-gaming screen in my array. I'll admit it scratches the motion issues off the list but the reason IPS is a better choice comparing tradeoffs (for me) is the high resolution/desktop real-estate, ppi, color quality+uniformity combined.

 

[rushaoz]

i just shun at anyone using a tv as a monitor.

And why us that? Im an ex TV salesman and a full-time gamer. You bet I've looked into this whole issue. Before I bought my ex400 all I looked for was a Panny s1 ( probably still regarded as the best gamers HDTV till this day. Anywho after shitload of research I landed on the ex400 because of the VA panel and its darker blacks. What you wanna look for is input lag. Not LCD response rate. It matters just as much as responsebrate does and is the only thing the manufacturer never labels on the box. Which is why buying the right monitor is so tricky. Anywho I bought my ex400. I use it full time as my PC monitor. I have no consoles or DVD players. Just my pc. And my TV performs extremely well. No tearing on text. No ghosting in games. Don't hate. Just buy the right DISPLAY. it shouldn't matter if its a TV or monitor. Because frankly my TV would beat any PC monitor out. And before you call me a noob I've calibrated on every possible setting I run my DVDs at 1080p/24 and my games at 1600x900 and up. Input lag. Its the devil.

 

[mathesar]

And why us that? Im an ex TV salesman and a full-time gamer. You bet I've looked into this whole issue. Before I bought my ex400 all I looked for was a Panny s1 ( probably still regarded as the best gamers HDTV till this day. Anywho after shitload of research I landed on the ex400 because of the VA panel and its darker blacks. What you wanna look for is input lag. Not LCD response rate. It matters just as much as responsebrate does and is the only thing the manufacturer never labels on the box. Which is why buying the right monitor is so tricky. Anywho I bought my ex400. I use it full time as my PC monitor. I have no consoles or DVD players. Just my pc. And my TV performs extremely well. No tearing on text. No ghosting in games. Don't hate. Just buy the right DISPLAY. it shouldn't matter if its a TV or monitor. Because frankly my TV would beat any PC monitor out. And before you call me a noob I've calibrated on every possible setting I run my DVDs at 1080p/24 and my games at 1600x900 and up. Input lag. Its the devil.

Agreed, anyone that has seen PC output on my 50" Pioneer Kuro plasma is always extremely impressed, the inky black levels, smooth motion clarity, unlimited viewing angles etc. go a long way on top of the bigger screen size, Skyrim looks amazing on it running @ Ultra settings. Ive been sitting in front of it using a 360 wireless controller via MS wireless adapter, Works great.

It just isnt the same experience on my LCD monitors...

 

[elvn]

A TV marked as "good for gaming" might be "good" compared to other tv's but is usually bad for a pc monitor as far as I'm concerned..
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First of all there is size vs your eyeball/gaze FoV at normal desk distances.. Any monitor much over 27" at desk distances is too big (30" high ppi ip are ok if set back a bit but are pushing it). The extents of the monitor end up in your periphery causing excessive eye bending to the perimeter, perhaps even micro head tilts.
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Then there is pixel blurring due to lcd panel pixel response time, which is why i am eliminating anything other than a crt and a 120hz (INPUT) TN as a gaming monitor. You don't "forget about" response time when every time you do a fast FoV movement, your extremely high detail textured +"3d" bump mapped textures are smeared out on the highest detail modern PC games
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... If you are using a pc game at a non native resolution on a 1080p monitor or TV (1600x900?) you are getting a substandard image already unless letterboxed.at 1:1. I always run games at native rez on my computer monitor.
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Input lag does suck if a monitor/tv has it. From what I've seen online, the ex500 version of your tv has 31 - 47ms of input lag. I'm not sure if that is comparable to yours or not. Scalers introduce input lag (at least one frame, commonly more) - which is all tv's that I know of, and many computer monitors (including some high ppi IPS models),. However response time causing the entire FoV of the panel to blur on fast FoV movement sucks too - eye wrenchingly. Blur is different than a ghost trail, it smears the textures out on fast FoV movement and I guarantee your TV does it. The ex400 is a VA panel by the way, and has a scaler.

Pixel densities
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27"...................2560 x 1440.......108.8 ppi....0.2335 mm
30"...................2560 x 1600.......100.6 ppi....0.2524 mm

22"...................1920 x 1080........100.132 ppi..0.2530 mm
20.1"................1680 x 1050..........98.4 ppi ..0.258 mm

23"...................1920 x 1080.........95.78 ppi....0.2652 mm <-- 60hz/120hz
24"...................1920 x 1200.........94.3 ppi....0.2692 mm

24"...................1920 x 1080..........91.8 ppi....0.2767 mm
19"...................1440 x 900...........89.37 ppi....0.2842 mm
27.5"(28")........1920 x 1200..........82.33 ppi....0.3085 mm
27"...................1920 x 1080.........81.59 ppi....0.3113 mm <-- 60hz / 120hz panels

---Too Large for a Desk, greater viewing distances suggested ----

30"...................1920 x 1080.........73.43 ppi...0.345 mm
32"...................1920 x 1080.........68.84 ppi...0.368 mm
37"...................1920 x 1080.........59.54 ppi..0.4266 mm
40"...................1920 x 1080.........55.07 ppi...0.4612 mm
42"...................1920 x 1080.........52.45 ppi...0.4843 mm
50"....................1920 x1080.........44.06 PPI, 0.5765mm


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I still stand firm on the resolution, ppi, desktop real-estate, gorgeous imagery, uniformity, and size of 2560x IPS panels for general computer/app use. I don't need to watch movies at my desk - I have a VA tv for that which has better blacklevels (and importantly detail-in-blacks).... and a decent perceived ppi at a normal tv viewing distance of 8' away for a 46" tv. For gaming I will be setting up my fw900 22.5" viewable 'graphics professional' crt at 1080p 100hz, with a 60hz 21.5" lcd on each side of it in eyefinity. I'm going to compare it to a 27" 120hz (input) samsung 1080p TN gaming monitor that is on the way as well. Imo both my 2560x ips and my gaming monitor of choice will be magnitudes better suited to their respective strengths at a desk than any tv, especially any LCD tv. Plasmas have some pros but they have their own tradeoffs and concerns, and of course size and ppi at a desk. I would not use one as a computer monitor.

 

[elvn]

EX 400 input lag test (youtube vid.. pause a few times to see comparisons).


Note that when he says "both have low input lag" -- he means "for a TV". 16ms to 39ms is unacceptable for a gaming computer monitor.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19606921#post19606921

(Right = V10 in THX mode. Left = EX400 in Game Mode)


(Slowest) (FlatpanelsHD = 18ms, Lagom = 39ms)


(Fastest) (FlatpanelsHD = 0ms, Lagom = 11ms)

Results:
FlatpanelsHD = ??, 17, 16, 00, 18, ??, 17, 17, 17, 00, 00, ??, 17, 16
Lagom = 26, 13, 26, 26, 39, ??, ??, 26, 13, 11, 26, 26, 13, 13

Conclusion:
Both the Samsung LN40C500 and Sony KDL-40EX400 have low input lag. Forgetting about numbers for a second, the C500 feels faster in the real world compared to the EX400, but the difference is very small. However, I still like the responsiveness of my old Westinghouse LVM-37w3se better, in which I plan to run test later. Perhaps the reason for my preference is the lack of ghosting in the Westy 37, who knows.

I also want to point out that the EX400 seems to lag more in Game Mode compared to Theater Mode. It's not directly slower, but the lag seems to jump more widely. I hits the 0ms mark more often, but the overall lag is higher. I'd recommend staying in Theater Mode, as the colors are way better, and the black level is also lower (0 Backlight + 16-235 Calibration is darker in Theater than in any other mode).

While I'm here, I'd like to also talk about picture quality. Color accuracy goes to the EX400 hands down. Black level goes to the EX400 as well (slightly), along with viewing angles (C500 has SQ01 panel). While the C500 viewing angles are not bad, they resemble my old LN52B750. It's a mix between the EX400 and my LVM-37w3se, where blacks look black, but you feel like they're not 100% even, no matter how far I sit. Shadow detail is just a hair inferior in the C500, while white detail is greatly superior in the EX400.

Text sharpness is a tricky business. While the EX400 has crispier test, it has more artifacts/errors. The C500 looks closer to my LVM-37w3se, even while outside 4:4:4 (not PC label), but it has a soft edge enhancement feel to it.

Ghosting wise, is also another tricky one. The EX400 has this smoke effect which is present at all times, but is very subtle. However, the C500 only ghosts in dark colors, but much worse. Light colors are nice and smooth.

Ignore what I've said in past posts. This 2 screens are very close, and after twiking, they are tied. Hopefully I helped you can pick one, because not a single one is good at everything.

Personally, I'm returning both of them. C500 is already returned matter of fact, and the EX400 is going back tonight as well. The reason, is because perfect text is a must (4:4:4) for PC users. Color accuracy is somewhat required, but the C500 just plain fails at it (4:4:4 mode, PC label, blocks color adjustment).
The LD450 is my next target, as I can live with not optimal black levels. Only movies require deep blacks, and I already have my V10 plasma for that. Once I get it, I promise to run input lag tests. Also, comparisons to the EX400 and the C500, as well as my reference LCD (LVM-37w3se).

 

[brod]

I use a Dell 2408WFP (A01) and I'm very happy with it. VA panels are nice, and I'm fairly certain their input lag isn't anywhere near as bad as testing typically shows.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1661348

 

[elvn]

They are still indicators showing input lag. You can try to deny it. It annoys me considerably on a tv (and I've used several different LCD tv's) when I'm playing something like rock band uncalibrated. Calibration tries to compensate for the input lag. You time your clicks to the metronome and when it is done it shows a really rough average input lag number result. Of course your reaction time comes into play vs the controller and I'm not saying it compares as a test to the established methods and photo-frame method I linked -- but any tv I've used other than a crt has had noticeable input lag on that test. My current tv is not his ex400, its a samsung b7000 series which even in game mode has a rough estimation of 32 - 48ms lag in rock band's calibration feature (granted its probably somewhat less than the high end but definitely noticeable uncalibrated). My crt tv is so tight by comparison even vs the "calibration fix" on the LCD.. In fact when I recently bought some ps3 move motion-controller gun games I had to switch back to my crt in order to make the reaction times tight enough to be playable in that "quick draw" type gameplay. When I bought my 2560x ips monitor I made sure it was a model with no scaler because I didn't want anything contributing to increased input lag for pc gaming.
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What annoys me much more though - especially on the high detail pc games are capable of currently on a powerful gpu - is lcd blurring (smearing out the textures and bump mapped 'depth') on fast FoV movement.. All tv's do that.. and most LCD computer monitors blur too. So I'm going to investigate the least blurring LCD monitor tech available - a 120hz (input) gaming LCD.
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I have both a 34" sony xbr 960 widescreen CRT HDTV 1080i/"720p" with hdmi, and a FW900 'graphics professional' 22.5" viewable CRT monitor to compare to so I know what no input lag and no blurring is like. Ignorance is bliss I guess so if you don't notice things that's great for you.

 

[nexv]

DLP TV's also don't have lag.

 

[elvn]

I wasn't knocked out by the DLP screens I've seen in the past quality wise.. but worse - of course I see rainbow streaks on them.
Its good to bring up though considering all tradeoffs available.
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I still do not agree with TV's as computer monitors at a desk, but I guess VA computer monitors are not bad for some people. They are sort of middle of the road between the tradeoffs of a 60hz TN and a 1920x IPS, but with better black levels than either. The color gamut on the 2408WFP sounds great too. They do blur though (like most LCDs) and have some input lag. I'd pass on the blacks and stick with my 2560x1440 ips personally. The blacks on it look look decent (at least dark) outside of HD movies, partly due to the fact that it is glossy I think. The desktop real-estate, ppi/rez,vs size are great, its uniform, and images look gorgeous. On the gaming side I'll tradeoff resolution/ppi, color accuracy, and uniformity in order to get a much less blurry display on a 120hz input 1080p gaming monitor. I'm glad VA tech is around though because I really enjoy it for HD content on my tv. If 2560x IPS didn't exist maybe VA would be a closer contender as the non-gaming computer monitor part of my setup.