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Alienhated

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,572
game.watch.impress.co.jp

これはセガサターンミニ!? 達成電器が技術デモを展示【 #TGS2023 】 FPGA技術で高い再現性を実現

 達成電器は、TGS2023の会場にてセガサターン用ディスクが動くミニコンソールの技術デモ展示を行なっている。

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Looks like a Saturn Mini-shaped prototype console running Darius II has been shown on a TGS booth, apparently to show off FPGA tecnology's versatiliy and advantages over emulation.
Probably just a cool tech demo, but who knows?

Also, this is just Google's translation, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
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LewieP

Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,174
Hmm, this Saturn Mister FPGA core is maturing quite nicely, but yeah kinda interested to hear about some of the technical details of this.

Edit: Oh this has a disc drive? That's pretty cool.
 

Wing84

Member
Nov 21, 2022
1,256
I would be satisfied with a mini-PC case that just looks like a Saturn (and other older consoles) at this point.
 
Oct 26, 2017
3,975
I did a big old mod of a Saturn earlier this year. It was a PAL one so I did a 60hz mod, Fenrir ODE and changed the save RAM to be non-volatile. I guess this would have a better video output. I like this thing but I think I'm good for now
 

Pendas

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,737
I'd love for this to be a thing... just so I can play the Original Grandia on it.
 

Clive

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,137
All I want is Saturn games ported to consoles and PC. Mini-consoles are an awful waste of plastic and space.
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,577
Judging by the mister which has Saturn running but is apparently a tight squeeze I would expect this to cost easily over £300, probably by quite a lot.

.... Kinda want
 

Virtua Sanus

Member
Nov 24, 2017
6,492
I do not see SEGA making something like this until they can viably price it around 150 USD max. I will be there day one though whenever it happens.
 

PennyPasta

Member
Sep 3, 2020
1,702
Gamer County
Please make this a real thing. Probably one of the only one of these 'mini' consoles I would actually be interested in, aside from like... a Dreamcast one, I suppose.
 
May 24, 2019
22,345
Looks like nothing to do with Sega. Seems like a Hyperkin display from the website.

edit: It's just to help visualize their Retron FPGA project. There's no Saturn mini.
Another FPGA exhibit was the "Retron FPGA. The Sega Saturn terminal mentioned earlier is just an application, and this is the manufacturer's main prototype. In the exhibit, a cassette for the American version of the Nintendo Entertainment System (NES) was inserted into the external device, and "Duck Hunt" could be played. The special accessory, a ray gun, can be used without modification, showing the high level of reproducibility.

Although the "Retron FPGA" is currently a prototype, the company hopes to commercialize it between the end of 2024 and 2025. They will start with 8-bit machines such as the Famicom (NES), but technically it is possible to reproduce 32-bit machines. This will lead to a technical demo of the Sega Saturn application, but 32-bit machines also include the PlayStation, etc. As a cutting-edge reissue project using FPGAs, this is a project that we are very much looking forward to.

They're not even expecting Saturn support out of the box. Probably just crossing their fingers for someone else to figure out a core that works with their specs that they can swipe.

Here's the actual thing.
EJtjYi4.jpg
E2HXle5.jpg
 
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LordGorchnik

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,313
What is FPGA and what is it trying to offer over Emulation? I have my Saturn hooked up to my Retro-Tink and it's great but if I can get full support for all my JP titles and such as well through another system I might be down.
 

red_shift_ltd

Member
May 24, 2019
779
US
FPGA's can be used to mirror the original chips on a hardware level. If programmed well they can be close to 1:1 vs emulation that tries really hard using faster CPUs than the original hardware to to just run everything with those excess cycles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-programmable_gate_array

"A field-programmable gate array (FPGA) is a type of integrated circuit that can be programmed or reprogrammed after manufacturing. It consists of an array of programmable logic block and interconnects that can be configured to perform various digital functions."
 

beelulzebub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
What is FPGA and what is it trying to offer over Emulation? I have my Saturn hooked up to my Retro-Tink and it's great but if I can get full support for all my JP titles and such as well through another system I might be down.
Laymen explanation incoming.

An FPGA stands for "Field-Programmable Gate Array." It's a programmable chip that can become whatever you want it to. The people behind this prototype have studied the Saturn thoroughly, its schematics, its various chips down to the transistor level, and have applied that knowledge to program this FPGA to be a Saturn. If it's programmed well, for all intents and purposes that FPGA IS a Saturn and will act like one highly accurately, quirks and all.

You can think of it as hardware emulation versus software emulation, with the explicit goal of recreating and preserving the original experience as accurately as possible. FPGA poses a number of advantages over software emulation: it's very low power draw (PARTICULARLY in light of its accuracy), it's adaptable and can be used to accurately recreate multiple systems (although in the case of this prototype, just a Saturn), and because there's no software emulation translation layer to interpret instructions between the actual hardware and the emulated hardware, there's zero latency. Prototypes like this can also use your discs. It's thus an attractive possibility for anyone that wants to accurately recreate a retro gaming experience with their own games and controllers on an HDMI equipped set with zero latency.

You may have heard of MiSTer kits or Analogue consoles like the Super NT or Analogue Pocket. These are FPGA hardware.

The primary downsides of FPGA hardware is the cost and availability. A premade MiSTer kit can set you back $500+ (you can build one yourself for much less) and an Analogue Pocket is $249, but good luck finding one at all.

Up until recently, 32 bit hardware wasn't really possible on FPGA, for the most part (some high end FPGA chips and highly skilled MiSTer programmers excluded who have been making excellent progress) the available chips hit their ceiling with 16 bit hardware. Seeing a Saturn prototype FPGA is quite exciting for that reason.
 

LordGorchnik

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,313
Laymen explanation incoming.

An FPGA stands for "Field/Programmable Gate Array." It's a programmable chip that can become whatever you want it to. The people behind this prototype have studied the Saturn thoroughly, its schematics, its various chips down to the transistor level, and have applied that knowledge to program this FPGA to be a Saturn. If it's programmed well, for all intents and purposes that FPGA IS a Saturn and will act like one highly accurately, quirks and all.

You can think of it as hardware emulation versus software emulation, with the explicit goal of recreating and preserving the original experience as accurately as possible. FPGA poses a number of advantages over software emulation: it's very low power draw (PARTICULARLY in light of its accuracy), it's adaptable and can be used to accurately recreate multiple systems (although in the case of this prototype, just a Saturn), and because there's no software emulation translation layer to interpret instructions between the actual hardware and the emulated hardware, there's zero latency. Prototypes like this can also use your discs. It's thus an attractive possibility for anyone that wants to accurately recreate a retro gaming experience with their own games and controllers on an HDMI equipped set with zero latency.

You may have heard of MiSTer kits or Analogue consoles like the Super NT or Analogue Pocket. These are FPGA hardware.

The primary downsides of FPGA hardware is the cost and availability. A premade MiSTer kit can set you back $500+ (you can build one yourself for much less) and an Analogue Pocket is $249, but good luck finding one at all.

Up until recently, 32 bit hardware wasn't really possible on FPGA, for the most part (some high end FPGA chips and highly skilled MiSTer programmers excluded who have been making progress) the available chips hit their ceiling with 16 bit hardware. Seeing a Saturn prototype FPGA is quite exciting for that reason.

Cheers mate that was actually really great to read. So what is the end goal for the FPGA devs/programmers/specialists? Are they looking to sell these kits (and or know-hows) eventually to actual hardware devs or are they trying to push this to a more consumer based market?
 

beelulzebub

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,658
Cheers mate that was actually really great to read. So what is the end goal for the FPGA devs/programmers/specialists? Are they looking to sell these kits (and or know-hows) eventually to actual hardware devs or are they trying to push this to a more consumer based market?
For companies like Analogue or now Retron, I imagine they're looking to sell their own products when showing off prototypes like this, as I can't imagine Sega would be interested in selling a Saturn mini that would cost $250+, and the market for gamers willing to buy such a device is quite small.

For MiSTer, it's an open source enthusiast community interested in preservation.
 

wutangflan

Member
Aug 15, 2023
19
The people behind this prototype have studied the Saturn thoroughly, its schematics, its various chips down to the transistor level

Like most MiSTer cores it's highly unlikely that they are emulating the hardware at a transistor level, that isn't necessary to achieve an output indistinguishable from the real hardware. Also, 32bit hardware was never off the table for the MiSTer's hardware, it just needed people to actually take it on.
 

Gitaroo

Member
Nov 3, 2017
8,140
Is FPGA more expensive than those off the sgelces ARM soc thats being used in a lot of these mini consoles?
 

andymcc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,434
Columbus, OH
Up until recently, 32 bit hardware wasn't really possible on FPGA, for the most part (some high end FPGA chips and highly skilled MiSTer programmers excluded who have been making excellent progress) the available chips hit their ceiling with 16 bit hardware. Seeing a Saturn prototype FPGA is quite exciting for that reason.

The MiSTer Saturn core is almost there, N64 is pretty much in alpha but-- holy shit at the progress.

Plase sega make this, I'll pay up to $150 haha

I would imagine this being in the $300+ range
 

Dukie85

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,553
I still need to get the actual gray/blue Saturn to replace my normal model 2
 

pirata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,416
From the note on the desk. Looks like its literally MiSTerFPGA + SNAC adapter for controllers.

yZSnrtc.png


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From the bits of the Japanese I can read, it seems to just be a concept mock-up (says it's a demonstration of their "mokuyaku," which is "target"/"goal"/"objective") using Mister/SNAC/and some other stuff I can't really read. It literally also says "this is not the real device." So it seems like an FPGA mini-Saturn is just a theoretical device they are showing can exist using existing parts on the market. Maybe they set it out there specifically to see if they could drum up interest in such a thing?
 

pirata

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,416
Cheers mate that was actually really great to read. So what is the end goal for the FPGA devs/programmers/specialists? Are they looking to sell these kits (and or know-hows) eventually to actual hardware devs or are they trying to push this to a more consumer based market?

Sorry for the double-post, but for you and anyone else reading this thread previously unacquainted with Mister, this video overview from My Life in Gaming last year is a fantastic primer on the project. It's from over a year ago, so it's a little out of date (namely when it comes to PSX/Saturn/N64), but still very relevant.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhT6YYRH1EI
 

stopmrdomino

Member
Jun 25, 2023
4,688
Sorry for the double-post, but for you and anyone else reading this thread previously unacquainted with Mister, this video overview from My Life in Gaming last year is a fantastic primer on the project. It's from over a year ago, so it's a little out of date (namely when it comes to PSX/Saturn/N64), but still very relevant.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhT6YYRH1EI

ah, the good old days, when my life in gaming still made videos